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Tutu

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Meaning that I should not worry too much.
The research was done at the University of Wageningen. I grew up next door, literally. The Aborethum, where this research facility is, is where we used to hang out at night and smoke a little something something. Very nice how this swings back at me
 

deluxestogie

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Curiously, Hoekstra never published (until the table in this book chapter) the data on N. tabacum, whereas he did publish his contributions to other species included in the table. 1995 seems a little early for tobacco phobia in research publications.

Bob
 

Smokin Harley

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very nice pics and detailed explanation Bob.
I'm now wondering what a cross of Little Dutch and Criollo 98 would produce...extra long dark leaves with a smooth chocolatey undertoned spice with a bit of creaminess . I'm imagining a mexican hot cocoa.
 

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I'm now wondering what a cross of Little Dutch and Criollo 98 would produce...
Many possibilities in trying this. But there is a catch. The plants produced from the first generation of crossed seed (F1) may include dozens of variations in mixed attributes. Some of these variations will not be discernible until the leaf has been harvested, cured, aged and smoked. Then the most promising group will likely need to be back-crossed to one, or sequentially both, of the original parents, in order to restore a desirable but lost trait. You might need to do this for several more generations. Once you have a happy result, you'll have to self that variety for a few more generations, discarding any wayward plants, until the new variety is stable (low heterogeneity). Altogether, this is about a 7 year process that involves crossing and planting scores, perhaps hundreds, of plants--harvesting and curing and aging and smoking them along the way.

Plus, you'll need to individually track both the seed pods and harvested leaf of conceivably dozens of trial plants.

If you're up for the challenge, go for it.

Bob

EDIT: for my typical grows of 150 to 250 plants each year, such a project might easily consume the entirety of every grow for the second through maybe the fourth year of the project.
 

Tutu

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That is one way to look at it Bob, and you are probably right. But one of many reasons for me to give it a shot is to see what kind of leaf comes of the hybrid plant, and to cure that leaf. I'm very curious to what the offspring will look like. Curiosity is the main thing here. As for the number of years that it will keep one busy, I have the advantage of being able to grow tobacco all year round. Although the rainy season might not be ideal, the temperature is just fine. It won't be hard to have at least two generations of plants in one year, cutting the number of years in half. As for the number of plants to grow to get the desired result, it depends on perspective as well I suppose. Even if I'd grow, say, five plants. As long as my selection criteria is not to find a specific trait (or traits) but rather just to find something "interesting", it would make the picking a lot easier. No need for hundreds of plants. Back crossing and self fertilizing would only be a matter of effort. Got to start at some point, so why not now. I might learn a thing or two along the way. Even if it turns out a total disaster...
 

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Information that would be particularly helpful in crossing tobacco would be knowing what specific traits are exclusively carried by mitochondrial/chloroplast DNA. We know, of course, that photosynthesis occurs in the chloroplast, and that mitochondria utilize the resulting carbohydrates to produce cell energy. What else their unique genes control is unclear to me.

Since both mitochondria and chloroplasts are inherited directly from the female (through the cytoplasm of each ovum), and not at all from the male, such traits could be expected to pass down only from the female side of the cross. What characteristics of tobacco would that influence? How deep the green of the leaf becomes? How rapidly they grow? How they color-cure?

Bob
 

Tutu

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Yes that would be interesting and maybe I could find out about such things in the long run, as long as I keep documenting everything I do. Definitely my intention. We'll see how things progress. Also, I probably won't be living in Indonesia forever. Therefore I should use the time I have as good as I can.

Another thing I was wondering about, is the ratio of pollen to seed. How do things work with fertilization. Is it a single pollen that fertilizes the pistil, grows a tube, and injects its "sperm" or whatever you may call it? Or is it multiple pollen that grow tubes. If so, what is the ratio of pollen to end product (seed). I find it hard to imagine that a pistil gets fertilized by as many pollen as there are seeds coming off the pod. The reason I am asking is this. If multiple pollen could fertilize the pistil, then a seedpod might end up with both cross-bred seed and self-bred seed. As much as I try to keep a flowers pistil exclusive to male anthers from the other variety, I cannot completely get rid of all outside factors. There might very well still be an insect able to creep into the flower and pollinate the flower from pollen picked up off from other flowers. Well, I guess its a minor detail. I am not worried, rather this comes from curiosity. Trying to understand as much as I can.
 

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Each individual seed (many thousands per blossom/seed pod) is formed from one ovum and one pollen grain. Self fertilization is prevented by removing the anthers from the blossom before they mature, then sealing the blossom after artificial pollination. Wind pollination is possible, but minimal, with an open blossom. Most insect pollinators of N. tabacum are relatively large, specialist, flying insects, and are easily kept out.

I think it's significant that an open blossom is still mostly self-pollinated. I believe that's in the range of 90% self-pollinated. This accounts for the pre-genetics notion of the 19th century that a new tobacco variety introduced to a region slowly (over several years) begins to take on the character of the predominant local tobacco. Because self-pollination is so high a percentage, open pollination takes years to become noticeable.

Bob
 

Tutu

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Well there are many many small insects wandering about the flowers around here. The same little insects I had earlier on which I described in the Amersfoort in Indonesia thread. I'm trying to close the flowers after inserting the foreign anthers. Looks like its working quite alright. Just had a new run at it and attempted to pollinate 4 more flowers. Eager to see whether they'll produce seed.

Nice theory on how newly introduced varieties change over time slowly. With hindsight, that is probably what happened. Any idea at what point bagging became a more established practice?
 

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Any idea at what point bagging became a more established practice?
That's a difficult thing to pinpoint. Selective pollination of corn began around 1870, by removing the tassels of most stalks. A robust understanding of Mendel's earlier genetics research only began near the end of the 19th century and early 20th century. As late as Killebrew's authoritative 1898 book, Tobacco Leaf, isolation by 1 mile is described as the most effective method of maintaining a pure strain. So I would guess that bagging of blossoms for intentional tobacco and vegetable breeding likely began in the first decade of the 20th century.

Professional-level breeding of flue-cured tobacco was started in 1928 by Coker Pedigreed Seed Company in Hartsville, SC. Prior to this time, and up to the 1940s, farmers made selections and re-selections, marketing their own cultivars, which resulted in many identical lines grown under different names.

http://www.tobaccoscienceonline.org/doi/pdf/10.3381/0082-4623-44.1.59
Bob
 

Guzzy

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Can Rustica tobacco plants cross with standard Havana ?. I want to grow two or three types this year.
IMG_20170414_002858630_LI.jpg
 

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deluxestogie

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Unless you attempt a large number of crosses (say 100), you are not likely to get seed from an attempt to cross N. tabacum with N. rustica, in either direction. Seed that might form from the cross is often sterile.

Bob

EDIT: Are you aiming for a rustica that tastes better, or a Havana that tastes worse?
 

ChinaVoodoo

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From a paper on Delgold. Sounds complicated, don't it?
Pedigree and Breeding MethodsDelgold was developed in an inter-specifichybridization study. A colchicine-derivedtetraploid (4n) Nicotiana tabacum L. 'Vir-ginia 1 l5' was crossed in 197 | to a deploid(2n) female parent from N. rustica L. 'Ba-bor'. The resultant interspecific hybrid didnot produce seed on selfing indicating ste-rility. However, repeated pollination of thehighly sterile F, inter-specific hybrid withdiploid (2n) Virginia 115 produced a fewbackcross-one (BC,) seed in 1972. TheseBC, progenies were grown in a breedingnursery in 1913 for their agronomic, mor-phological and chemical characterization.Most of the BC, progenies were off-typesCan. J. Pfant Sci. 64t 233-236 (Jan. 1984)233with a bushy habit of growth and high de-gree of sterility. An individual BC' selec-tant, with high leaf total alkaloids, wasbackcrossed to N. tqbacwn 'Hicks Broad-leaf' as a diploid female parent in thegreenhouse. A selected high leaf total al-kaloid genotype from the second backcross(BCr) generation was further backcrossedas the female parent with a diploid Virginia115. Normal floral fertility and flue-curedtobacco phenotype were restored amongthe segregants of the BC, generation. Sub-sequent to the BC. generation, individualplant selection and selfing were carriedout, and by 1976 a fully fertile diploidstrain 76N2 was evaluated in an early gen-eration testing program. A set of sevenwell-differentiated sister-1ines, based onleaf dimension and shape, plant type andcolor, was established from the 76N2 bulkpopulation. Performance evaluations con-ducted under the designation 76N2-E iden-tified the strain to be superior to its othersister-lines and the check cultivar Virginia115. Certified seed production began in1 980.
 

Tutu

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This is definitely something I intend to try in a few years. The tough challenge is what makes my eyes glow. But first I think it'd be good to learn more about normal n. tabacum crossing and hybrids.
 

Guzzy

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I wanted to keep them separate and collect seeds without crossing. I see the techniques shown earlier, I'll just bag a few of each and let the bees enjoy the rustica and top the Havana.

Unless you attempt a large number of crosses (say 100), you are not likely to get seed from an attempt to cross N. tabacum with N. rustica, in either direction. Seed that might form from the cross is often sterile.

Bob

EDIT: Are you aiming for a rustica that tastes better, or a Havana that tastes worse?
 

burge

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Stupid question but if a plant cross pollinates naturally do the plants that are growing take on the characteristics of the crossed plants or is it just the seed?
 

Tutu

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If the flowers cross pollinate, the plants growing from the resulting seeds take on characteristics of the parent plants, thus those plants from the two flowers that crossed.
However, you are indeed raising another question. In the case of a N. rustica and N. tabacum, what would the seeds look like.
Rustica seeds are larger than tabacum seeds. Would that be determined by the female side of the cross?
Or would the seeds be an average of the sizes of rustica and tabacum?
Bob?
 
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