Flue Cured process

[SmokesAhoy]

Is it necessary to complete the entire process in 1 go? I understand why the temps are gradually raised over a period of days.

So i wonder, if I have already completed the first 4 steps and am on to the last one of raising the temp to 165, what is stopping me from placing leaves that have yellowed and been hanging for some time in a 160ish degree oven for a few hours?

most things in life have reasons and end results can be obtained by alternate routes, so out of curiosity i have a few strips of older yellow tobacco in the oven at 160 (it pops up slightly higher periodically so i set it lower) and will sample it tonight to see if i can have nature do the first several steps of a flue cure and me finish it with a device everyone has in their house already.

 

[leverhead]

Going from yellowing to above 120 degrees is the ticklish part, if you don't get the moisture content of the leaf down enough you'll scald it. I'm still trying to learn what the leaves look like at the different points along the way. It's kind of a narrow window to get through, if you go up on the temp too fast you'll scald it (brown), if you go too slow you'll sponge it (kind of a grey color). The schedule that comes up over and over is a GOOD guide, but it's not written in stone, it's just a guide. Learning the judgement calls is what threw me, next year shouldn't be so bad. I don't think getting a tobacco leaf to dry yellow/orange is going to happen often in a natural setting.

 

[LeftyRighty]

I've wondered why one can't just do the first few steps -- getting the green out, into the yellow stage (except maybe the midrib), and partially drying of the lamina, then just finish with an air-cure. Why do the full high-heat cycle, why not let Mother Nature finish.?
Done this way, is it a flue-cure, an air-cure, or something in between, as far as taste, quality of smoke.

 

[SmokesAhoy]

Why not? That would also speed up processing bumper crops so none gets wasted. We should experiment with everything.

 

[deluxestogie]

The essence of flue-curing is to halt the chemical balance of the leaf at an unnatural state, in order to produce low pH, sweet, bright tobacco. Mother Nature doesn't like that. The high temp "kill" phase serves to kill Mother Nature's chance to set things "right." If you fail to complete the cure, your leaf will initially look nice, but will slowly become a muddy brown over the next month, as the still-active oxidase enzymes work the will of Mother Nature. You will have more or less wasted your time performing the incomplete flue-cure.

Bob

 

[Rayshields]

The essence of flue-curing is to halt the chemical balance of the leaf at an unnatural state, in order to produce low pH, sweet, bright tobacco. Mother Nature doesn't like that. The high temp "kill" phase serves to kill Mother Nature's chance to set things "right." If you fail to complete the cure, your leaf will initially look nice, but will slowly become a muddy brown over the next month, as the still-active oxidase enzymes work the will of Mother Nature. You will have more or less wasted your time performing the incomplete flue-cure.

Bob

Yup...tried it and that is what I got.

 

[SmokeStack]

I am growing Yellow Orinoco primarily because I have read that it produces some of the sweetest tobacco. Since Yellow Orinoco is a Virgina, I assume that it traditionally undergoes the flue curing process. I will be air curing my tobacco since I don't have the equipment for flue curing. In comparison to flue curing, would air curing my Yellow Orinoco produce a tobacco that is higher in sugar content or lower?

 

[LeftyRighty]

OK, thanks Bob.....that's what I thought might be happening.
Thanks for clarifying this.

 

[deluxestogie]

My experience with air-curing, then kilning flue-cure varieties is that you still end up with a slightly sweeter and definitely more acidic end product, when compared to most of the cigar varieties handled in the same manner. Using air-cured, kilned, bright tobacco as a cigar filler usually requires blending with a darker, heavier (preferably cigar type or Perique-processed) tobacco to raise the pH into the expected alkaline range (and avoid tongue bite).

I've made cigars with flue-cured tobacco. They taste like mild, giant cigarettes.

Bob

 

[SmokeStack]

Bob, is it because the oxidases oxidize sugars to carboxylic acids during the air curing process? This would explain the decrease in sweetness and increase in acidity. I am really aiming at getting the sweetest Virginia tobacco for pipe blends (without spraying the tobacco with a sugar solution). To achieve this, would I have to flue cure the Yellow Orinoco?

 

[Jitterbugdude]

I am growing Yellow Orinoco primarily because I have read that it produces some of the sweetest tobacco.

Don't misunderstand that quote about it being the sweetest. It does not meet sweet in the same manner you think of when pipe tobacco has a sweet casing or a sweet top note. In this instance it means mild and smooth.

 

[deluxestogie]

Marco,
I don't know the answer.

Bob

 

[SmokeStack]

Don't misunderstand that quote about it being the sweetest. It does not meet sweet in the same manner you think of when pipe tobacco has a sweet casing or a sweet top note. In this instance it means mild and smooth.

Jitterbug, I purchased a few pounds of flue-cured Canadian Virginia a few months back. I smoked it straight (without any other tobaccos mixed in) and was very sweet tasting - sweet in a sugar sense. The only problem was that it was not smooth or mild. It was much harsher than I expected it to be. Since it was flue-cured, I don't know of a way to mellow out the harshness. I assumed that putting flue-cured tobacco in a kiln would not do much in terms of making it less harsh.

I have purchased processed blending Virginias that were not harsh at all. In fact they were very smooth. I smoke Rattrays Marlin Flake, Samuel Gawith Full Virginia Flake and Orlik Golden Sliced regularly. These tobaccos have very little if any casing or other additives and they smoke sweet and smooth as silk. These are very high quality blends - among the best. This is what I am aiming to produce, but I am at a loss of knowledge. I need to figure out how to transform whole leaf Virginia tobaccos into a smooth and sweet tobacco.

 

[johnlee1933]

My experience with air-curing, then kilning flue-cure varieties is that you still end up with a slightly sweeter and definitely more acidic end product, when compared to most of the cigar varieties handled in the same manner. Using air-cured, kilned, bright tobacco as a cigar filler usually requires blending with a darker, heavier (preferably cigar type or Perique-processed) tobacco to raise the pH into the expected alkaline range (and avoid tongue bite).

I've made cigars with flue-cured tobacco. They taste like mild, giant cigarettes.

Bob

OK Bob, now I'm confused. I thought there was less tongue bite with lower pH. Have I got it wrong? In an earlier thread adding some type of sugar in the case was to REDUCE pH. Where have I gone wrong? (Only the short list please.) Oh Yeah, How do I measure tobacco pH?

Thanks, John

 

[Jitterbugdude]

You got it wrong, the lower the pH the more acidic, hence- more tongue bite.
Adding sugar to a casing doesn't reduce the pH of the mix, but when it burns, the sugar will reduce the pH of the burning tobacco.
Reducing the pH will also reduce the availability of nicotine, that's why you inhale cigarettes (low pH) but not cigars (not so low pH)

 

[Jitterbugdude]

Jitterbug, I purchased a few pounds of flue-cured Canadian Virginia a few months back. I smoked it straight (without any other tobaccos mixed in) and was very sweet tasting - sweet in a sugar sense.

That makes sense. Flue curing sets the sugar levels . Air curing will have considerably lower sugar content than a flue cured. Now, if you could flue cure Yellow Orinoco you might have something to brag about..

 

[johnlee1933]

You got it wrong, the lower the pH the more acidic, hence- more tongue bite.
Adding sugar to a casing doesn't reduce the pH of the mix, but when it burns, the sugar will reduce the pH of the burning tobacco.
Reducing the pH will also reduce the availability of nicotine, that's why you inhale cigarettes (low pH) but not cigars (not so low pH)

Thanks Dude, That's what I thought but Bob's comment made me question myself.

John

 

[deluxestogie]

Talk to Don or Larry about obtaining some whole leaf Perique (Perique processed). It's like getting a new and effective chemical for your chemistry set. You take out a soggy leaf or two of Perique, allow it to dry, then cut it into 0.5" x 6" strips. Add 1 strip to any tobacco, and it dramatically changes the pH [lowers the acidity = raises the pH]. You (John) will find that harsh Virginia flue-cured leaf (by that, I mean the kind that rips your tongue) becomes heavenly. Add too much Perique, and it will knock you on your butt (because of the increased nicotine absorption at the higher pH).

Bob

 

[johnlee1933]

Talk to Don or Larry about obtaining some whole leaf Perique (Perique processed). It's like getting a new and effective chemical for your chemistry set. You take out a soggy leaf or two of Perique, allow it to dry, then cut it into 0.5" x 6" strips. Add 1 strip to any tobacco, and it dramatically changes the pH [lowers the acidity = raises the pH]. You (John) will find that harsh Virginia flue-cured leaf (by that, I mean the kind that rips your tongue) becomes heavenly. Add too much Perique, and it will knock you on your butt (because of the increased nicotine absorption at the higher pH).

Bob

Thanks Bob. If I understand this right harsh Virginia is harsh because it is too acid?

 

[deluxestogie]

John,
"Harsh" means different things to different people. Flue-cured tobacco in a pipe or cigar bites the tongue because of the low pH. Harshness can be due to less than optimal harvesting time, inadequate or improper curing, inherently strong tobacco variety, odd alkaloid mixture. Heaven knows what else.

I would say that the most common "too harsh" complaint is the result of impatience: not allowing the leaf to age enough, or rest after coming out of the kiln. I would guess that commercially prepared and purchased flue-cured would narrow the possibilities down to pH and inherent strength.

Bob