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Question on legality of processing AFTER purchase of whole leaf

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Michibacy

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I'm trying to think of ways to better serve my customers. I know it can differ per state so I am only asking on the federal level (unless you happen to know Michigan's law)

Is there any regulation AGAINST selling whole leaf and offering free shredding? I would not process until AFTER the payment went through etc. Any help would be appreciated, thanks!

-Michibacy
 

DonH

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Yes, the Feds have come down hard on a lot of tobacco stores for stuffing tubes even in a self serve fashion. The tobacco store near me was involved in a big case about it. It was considered by the govt that they were manufacturing cigarettes. So if you offer free shredding than you would be processing tobacco.
 

johnlee1933

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Yes, the Feds have come down hard on a lot of tobacco stores for stuffing tubes even in a self serve fashion. The tobacco store near me was involved in a big case about it. It was considered by the govt that they were manufacturing cigarettes. So if you offer free shredding than you would be processing tobacco.
Yes. One member (smokesec) has a shop in Wisconsin if I remember right. He had to stop renting cig machines customers. I expect shredding to be about the same.

J
 

Chicken

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just another venue, that shows us '' supposedlly'' free people,

just how much the government has control over our lives,?
 

Michibacy

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Maybe I just need to have a random shredder sitting over away from my booth :p
 

DonH

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Yes. One member (smokesec) has a shop in Wisconsin if I remember right. He had to stop renting cig machines customers. I expect shredding to be about the same.

J

Yes, and these stores already had a license to sell tobacco. But they were found to be liable for the taxes involved in manufacturing them.
 

DonH

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Maybe I just need to have a random shredder sitting over away from my booth :p

If you're just selling a few leaves, I would just demonstrate how easy it is to de-stem, roll the strips, and cut with a sharp knife or scissors. Let the customer do it for the leaves they buy. If they start buying leaves by the pound, then maybe you can sell them shredders.
 

Boboro

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just another venue, that shows us '' supposedlly'' free people,

just how much the government has control over our lives,?
MAYbe thir use'in tax to controll free enterise. they could'nt get much money from us. they gust want to keep us in our place. While they get filthy rich with lobby money.
 

smokesec

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Sorry for the late post.

I had an inspection from the ATF myself about a month ago. They informed me at the time they did not care about customers using a shredder in the store.

These organizations are entirely statistical. They aren't going to care about leaf tobacco until they see a major shift in the market. 3 years ago they didn't care about "pipe tobacco" either. But when the tax was raised on "RYO" tobacco, and "pipe tobacco" sales magically increased 10 fold, they started raising an eyebrow.
 

johnlee1933

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Sorry for the late post.

I had an inspection from the ATF myself about a month ago. They informed me at the time they did not care about customers using a shredder in the store.

These organizations are entirely statistical. They aren't going to care about leaf tobacco until they see a major shift in the market. 3 years ago they didn't care about "pipe tobacco" either. But when the tax was raised on "RYO" tobacco, and "pipe tobacco" sales magically increased 10 fold, they started raising an eyebrow.
Welcome back. Aren't these the same folks who said you couldn't rent out MYO cig machines? -- John
 

Michibacy

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I just contacted the TTb (department of ATF that has begun regulating tobacco/alcohol) regarding the issue. (Don't know why I didn't think of it before) I'll post the response I get from him.
 

smokesec

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Welcome back. Aren't these the same folks who said you couldn't rent out MYO cig machines? -- John

Yes and no. I actually came to that conclusion myself reading the the wording of the law when it was passed. They (the ATF) confirmed my assumptions. The law was very broad and could be applied to a variety of scenarios - such as the latest "private club" stuff the machine owners are trying to pull - ain't gonna fly, at least not in my state.
 

smokesec

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I just contacted the TTb (department of ATF that has begun regulating tobacco/alcohol) regarding the issue. (Don't know why I didn't think of it before) I'll post the response I get from him.

My advice is to let the CUSTOMER do the shredding with a shredder you provide. Do not do it yourself.
 

Michibacy

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I asked both forms of the question to the TTB agent. Can I do it for him post sale with no cost applied and can I let them with a shredder I provide. Great thing to ask!
 

Michibacy

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It's worth not having the head ache, if I decide to sell at a market and such I don't want my I's crossed and my T's dotted..
 

smokesec

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If they say it's ok, in either form, be absolutely SURE to get it in writing - ie email.
 

smokesec

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Also remember, state law may be more stringent than federal law.
 

FmGrowit

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It's worth not having the head ache, if I decide to sell at a market and such I don't want my I's crossed and my T's dotted..

It's really pretty simple.

If you manipulate a tobacco leave in any way other than putting it in a bag and selling it, you're a manufacturer. If you shred ANY leaf, regardless of who owns it, you are a manufacturer and you'll need a TTB license to do it.

The feds aren't going to argue semantics with you...they'll charge you with a crime, put you in jail and say "we'll let the judge figure it out".

A bigger hurdle to overcome will be convincing the market owner you aren't selling tobacco. Even if you we're selling "custom shredding", you'll have difficult enough of a time selling whole leaf which is quite legitimate.
 
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