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Respect for the Earth

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Markw

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I think we can all look at bar charts and point fingers, it is how people try to prove their point,
If we look at it in another way pollution tons per human it looks very different.

China Population 1354 thousand million little people (pollution in millions tons 6108)
USA Population 314 million (pollution in millions tons 5833)
UK Population 57 million (pollution in millions tons 586)
If someone would like to crunch the numbers you will see

Now re calculate that, and it is a different picture, the truth is co2 pollution is exactly mirrored to world population, there aint no way of getting away from it, we are all breeding like rabbits !!!!!!!
 

istanbulin

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I think we can all look at bar charts and point fingers, it is how people try to prove their point,
If we look at it in another way pollution tons per human it looks very different.

China Population 1354 thousand million little people (pollution in millions tons 6108)
USA Population 314 million (pollution in millions tons 5833)
UK Population 57 million (pollution in millions tons 586)
If someone would like to crunch the numbers you will see

Now re calculate that, and it is a different picture, the truth is co2 pollution is exactly mirrored to world population, there aint no way of getting away from it, we are all breeding like rabbits !!!!!!!

Very good point, thanks.

If we calculate it by per capita, Qatar is the most populated country per capita but population is only 1.85 million ! Also we can see that the USA is more polluting than China (per capita).

Recalculation doesn't change the amount of pollution per country and the total amount. I believe that there is no borders in nature.

We shouldn't close our eyes and wait.
 

Markw

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I could rant on for ages regarding this. But I think all of us care for nature and the environment that we have inherited.
I try to recycle everything , grow my own food and tobacco and heck I am even going to re-cycle the old tobacco plant stalks and turn them into charcoal. Ha I might even have a go at cooking the perfect Sweet Potato Cobbler in the Barbeque.
Now were those temperatures in faraheight or centigrade ???? .

Markw
 

oldsouth

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Trees are only cut down for urbanization. Oldsouth we're not selling timber to survive. LOL



Very interesting ! I think you're talking by heart.

Have a look at this

defores9.JPG


ForestLoss.jpg




Worlds-Top-10-Polluting-Countries-2012.jpg


I'm sorry, but the images you provided don't seem at all accurate. The last one shows me as living in a de-forested area. I live right in the middle of the Pisgah National Forest, which abuts the Cherokee National Forest - this is millions of acres of nothing but forests. Continuing in NC, it shows the Uwharrie National Forest as de-forested, the Great Dismal Swamp as de-forested both of these are mostly desolate wilderness areas. It is showing almost all of SC as de-forested, even though much of the state is utilized by the timber industry that constantly plants, grows, cuts and replants trees. Maybe these images measure only old-growth virgin forest. But, trees are trees, even those planted on golf courses or in suburban landscaping. Respectfully, I just cannot agree with the info presented or the conclusions it infers.
 

oldsouth

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Also, I cannot agree with labeling CO2 a pollutant as it is one of the most common elements in the natural environment - out gassing from bodies of water, plants (especially coniferous trees), animals and even the earth itself. If it were so dangerous, each volcano that erupts would destroy all life on earth. I believe that the earth has a way of naturally balancing and compensating.
 

istanbulin

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I took the images from a scientific article. Meyer WB. 1995. Past and present land use and land cover in the USA. Consequences. Spring 1995:25-33

When it comes to CO2, it's only an optimistic idea of you. By the way, puple graph shows not only CO2 but also all greenhouse gases (GHGs).
 

oldsouth

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I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. I believe that two intelligent people can draw differing conclusions in good faith.

I hope one day you can be my guest on a visit to the US. If so, I'd like to take you for a hike out my back door, 5-10 miles through the woods, up to Grandfather Mountain or 20-30 miles int he other direction, along the Appalachian trail to Roan Mountain, TN. Both mountains are more than 5,000 ft in elevation and from each, the view is hundreds of miles into 3 states. You will see the most beautiful sea of green imaginable, soaring eagles, pure springs, waterfalls, etc and hopefully is will assuage your fears.... at least until the (supposedly extinct) mountain lions begin screaming after sunset! Surely, not everywhere is as pristine as my little corner of the world, but as the old saying goes, if everyone swept their own doorstep, the whole world would be clean.
 

deluxestogie

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Istanbulin's maps of deforestation are, of course, accurate. Note that the last map is dated 1920. The general trend in the US was to designate as "National Forest" areas that were nearly clear-cut, and of little use to the logging industry.

Virginia, for example, was nearly stripped bare. Mountain ridges that were denuded of trees were occupied by farmers who discovered that you can't profitably grow crops on mountain ridges (duh!). So they were abandoned.

I have hiked many hundreds of miles in the Appalachian Mountains, from Georgia, through Tennessee, North Carolina, Virginia, Pennsylvania and northern New Jersey. Large stretches of this are presently National Forest land. Its splendid stands of trees are in stark contrast to the surrounding agricultural, suburban and urban land.

However, if you actually look at the trees individually, you will discover that all of them are less than 100 years old, most are less than 50 years old, and many extensive stands are 20 to 30 year old trees. Large swaths of National Forest trees are of identical age and species--usually pine, meaning that the land was clear-cut, then purposely replanted. There are still some ridges that are host to mixed Chestnut, Chestnut Oak.

In a 50 mile radius surrounding Blacksburg, Virginia, which includes vast portions of National Forest land, I went on a search for truly large trees--those likely to be over 100 years old. With the exception of a small stand (~8 trees) of immense first-growth Eastern Hemlock that is a marked and protected remnant within the Jefferson National Forest (they were too inaccessible to be logged), I found only 5 very large trees.

What Istanbulin's maps fail to show is the clear increase in forested land within the extensive National Forest (and Park) boundaries over the past 80 years. So the lovely forests that we behold today (mostly young trees) are a relatively new thing. Gone are the breathtaking stands of 30 foot circumference yellow poplars that greeted the first Europeans. Gone are the "limitless" stands of gigantic live oak that were consumed in the manufacture of hulls of the great sailing ships. We cut them all down, and have replaced the mixed-species "first" growth giants with a simplified selection of rapidly growing species.

In the US, as you drive along any major highway, there seem to be trees everywhere. But in the winter, if you look beyond the immediate line of trees, there's nothing there. Most of the trees visible from roadways are only one or two trees deep. Many of these "stands" of trees are simply neglected fence rows separating vast expanses of cultivated land. It's an illusion.

So, yes, we cut them all down. And yes, we've planted something to replace some of it. In some parts of the country we are planting more than we're cutting. In other parts (the Rockies, the Northwest, southern Alaska) we are cutting more than planting.

If you want to see the reality of our forests, just look at the circumferences of the individual trees. They're babies.

Bob

For the curious:
  • Silver T: A new Face on the Countryside: Indians, colonists, and slaves in South Atlantic forests, 1500-1800. Cambridge Univ. Press. 1990.
    This is a treatment of period observations and impressions of the status of the land back then.

  • Thomas WL, Sauer CO, Bates M, Mumford L: Man's Role in Changing the Face of the Earth. 2 vol., Univ. Chicago Press. 1956.
    This remarkable book, which presents the content of a symposium held in Princeton, in 1955--way before the "ecology" movement, and back when the opinions of truly knowledgeable people were still respected--looked at how man had altered islands, shores, courses of rivers, topology, geography, soil, weather and habitability of nearly every region of Earth. And that was nearly 60 years ago.

  • Fradkin PL: A River No More: The Colorado River and the West. Univ. Arizona Press. 1984.
    I'll cut to the punchline on this one. The mighty Colorado River--one of North America's great river systems--has so much water diverted from it for urban and agricultural purposes that it no longer reaches the ocean. It runs dry before it gets there.
 

oldsouth

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All good points deluxstogie, although I take it we disagree on the major issue. That goes back to my point that in the early stages of economic development, much damage is done that following, more comfortable, generations can begin to correct.

I'd add to your reading list:

The Skeptical Environmentalist by Bjorn Lomborg. He co-founded Greenpeace and believes in man caused climate change, but takes issue with alarmist propaganda.

Also, the writings of Dr. Fred Decker, Roy Cordato and Charles Hosler.
 

johnlee1933

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Also, I cannot agree with labeling CO2 a pollutant as it is one of the most common elements in the natural environment - out gassing from bodies of water, plants (especially coniferous trees), animals and even the earth itself. If it were so dangerous, each volcano that erupts would destroy all life on earth. I believe that the earth has a way of naturally balancing and compensating.
I must respectfully disagree a little and hopefully clarify a bit. CO2 is not an element. It is a compound containing one carbon atom and two oxygen atoms. It is manufactured by almost all living things on earth, certainly all mammals. As you exist you combine oxygen from the air with carbon you consumed to produce energy for life and carbon dioxide (CO2). Green plants do exactly the same thing when it is dark. When exposed to light (primarily sun light) they CONSUME CO2 to generate cellulose, sugars, starches and myriad other things necessary for growth. This is one of the normal cycles of life. Obviously, normal concentrations of CO2 are not toxic.

The issue that seems to be under debate is whether increasing concentrations of CO2 (due to a variety of reasons) is causing the earth to retain more of the suns energy leading to global warming. I do not plan to get into that debate here.

As an odd aside: The 1883 eruption of the volcano Krakatoa in 1883 put so many millions of tons of ash in the atmosphere that a great deal of the suns energy was reflected away into space and winters got progressively colder culminating in the winter of 1888. That winter was so cold Niagara Falls froze solid. As the ash settled back out of the air the temperature increased over the next few years.

John
 

istanbulin

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A internet community agaclar.net brought together a lot of musicians from different walks of life, from different places and some countries , opinions and backgrounds, to remind people of the facts once again: that we should work for nature; Play for Nature (Doğa İçin Çal).

There're four videos, each of them are potpourris of three to four songs.


Here' the first video,

 

istanbulin

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This video is about an island in the ocean at 2000 miles from the nearest continent. Nobody lives, only birds and yet, you will not believe what you will see here.

"Midway - Message from the gyre" www.midwayfilm.com

[video=vimeo;25563376]http://vimeo.com/25563376[/video]
 

Knucklehead

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We broke some Japanese codes and had a pretty decent carrier battle there, but it looks like we left a slight environmental problem for the water chickens.
 
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