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Reducing TSNAs in homegrown tobacco?

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Michibacy

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If we can come up with a cost and time effective way of doing it I'd love to help. I'll have to run it past the misses, and make sure it doesn't interfere with college/work but if it all comes together that'd be awesome.
 

SmokeStack

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I have a bunch of preliminary information I need to get, but if we show that we have a novel idea, I can always apply for a grant that will cover the entire cost and even pays a salary for the time spent working on a project. But applying for a grant is a full-time job in itself. Although I am doubtful about the project: if Star Scientific has a patent on a similar process, then we aren't the only ones thinking about it. The only novelty I see is applying a process for air-cured tobacco. Air-cured tobacco has TSNAs just like flue-cured tobacco. I have not seen any attempt for a method of reducing levels of TSNAs in air-cured tobacco. This is a possibility. It would take a while to gather data since air-curing requires weeks to cure while flue-curing takes a few days. On the plus side, we would not need to build a flue-curing outfit.
 

BigCasino

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I mess around in the art of Charcuterie (cured meats) Nitrites occur in almost all vegetable, and they come from the ground, fertilizers and such, when curing meats with Nitrates and nitrites, the general rule is that Nitrates are used for long term curing, specifically of dried types of meats like salami, pepperoni, and hams which are not smoked, and nitrites for sausages and bacons, the Nitrates react slower and like a time release they slowly release nitrites which is what cures the meats, if they used nitrites they would dissipate during the curing process cause nitrites have a shelf life, the USDA has banned the use of nitrates in the use of bacon because if all of the nitrates don't convert to nitrites then when frying the bacon at high temperatures the nitrates convert into nitrosamines, I was under the i was under the impression that nitrites do not form nitrosamines, I believe when nitrates are mixed with oxygen they convert and release the nitrites, I don't believe nitrites can be converted back to nitrates but I could be wrong, but also perhaps when they flood the chamber with o2 it helps convert the nitrates to nitrites more efficiently cause a lower nitrate level meaning less nitosamines released during combustion?
 

BigCasino

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So to make a long story short, the nitrites in the tobacco aren't the same as found on other things? Which is why they are called tobacco specific I'll bet , I guess I should have realized that before I typed all that out :rolleyes:
 

SmokeStack

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So to make a long story short, the nitrites in the tobacco aren't the same as found on other things? Which is why they are called tobacco specific I'll bet , I guess I should have realized that before I typed all that out :rolleyes:

Nitrites are not tobacco specific, they are commonly found in nature. They are the chemicals that react with certain naturally occurring compounds SPECIFICALLY found in tobacco called amines. Actually the nitrites themselves don't react with the amines, but they can react with naturally occurring acids through a pathway that produces a very reactive chemical species called nitrosonium ions. It is actually the nitrosonium ions that react with the amines, hence the name tobacco specific nitrosamines.
 

SmokeStack

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I believe when nitrates are mixed with oxygen they convert and release the nitrites

It is just the opposite. Nitrates are in a higher oxidation state than nitrites. When nitrites are oxidized, they transform into nitrates. When nitrates are reduced, they transform into nitrites. This is because nitrates have 3 oxygen atoms and nitrites have 2 oxygen atoms. BTW This is the time of year when it's cool enough to hang sausage in the cellar and make some addictive salami. This topic is giving me a serious appetite.:eek:
 

BigCasino

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Yeah it is, I have never made a dry cured sausage or ham, but I'm thinking I can make a curing chamber for sausage and also use it for a kiln too
 

93rdCanadian

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Hey guys check this(link) out. It's a patent for processing tobacco before it cures to reduce bacteria levels which are produces or precursor produces of nitrosamines. I read a good portion of it and concluded that using a wash of water and sodium bicarbonate(baking soda) would not only reduce the bacterial and fungal levels but also allows tobacco to be air-cured in 25 - 50 percent less time. I have never grown or cured tobacco and I always thought that the bacteria were needed to help transform the nasties in the tobacco into goodies, if it is possible to cure tobacco into a quality product without the bacteria then this method could come in handy. Also the patent states that bacteria on the tobacco leaves cease activity and die at around 50C or 122F and that heating the bicarbonate wash to 55C or 131F would help in killing a large portion of the bacteria while causing minimal damage to the leaf. To make the info easier to find scroll to page 6 of the patent pdf and look under the heading alkaline lavage. There is another antibacterial lavage that uses 70% alcohol but to me it would be easier to use baking soda.

Check out the following chart found on page 7 of the patent.
tsna.png
 
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johnlee1933

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Hey guys check this out. It's a patent for processing tobacco before it cures to reduce bacteria levels which are produces or precursor produces of nitrosamines. I read a good portion of it and concluded that using a wash of water and sodium bicarbonate(baking soda) would not only reduce the bacterial and fungal levels but also allows tobacco to be air-cured in 25 - 50 percent less time. I have never grown or cured tobacco and I always thought that the bacteria were needed to help transform the nasties in the tobacco into goodies, if it is possible to cure tobacco into a quality product without the bacteria then this method could come in handy. Also the patent states that bacteria on the tobacco leaves cease activity and die at around 50C or 122F and that heating the bicarbonate wash to 55C or 131F would help in killing a large portion of the bacteria while causing minimal damage to the leaf. To make the info easier to find scroll to page 6 of the patent pdf and look under the heading alkaline lavage. There is another antibacterial lavage that uses 70% alcohol but to me it would be easier to use baking soda.

Check out the following chart found on page 7 of the patent. View attachment 2970
I don't see the attachment. Did I do something wrong (again?) -- J
 

93rdCanadian

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How did it smoke and taste, after prolonged washing?

Bob

I havent had a chance to try this method out yet, but I will be doing some experiments with my first grow. Its just some information I found while researching what TSNA's are and figured it might help someone here or just be good to have for future reference.
 

SmokeStack

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93, interesting patent. Using sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) seems benign enough. I read the patent over quickly so I didn't catch all of the details, but the author claims that the alkaline rinse not only eliminates the bacteria responsible for the TSNA production but it also accelerates the curing process. The one thing I did not understand was that the author said that the bacteria die at about 50 degrees Celsius. I believe that during the flue curing process, temperatures are much higher - so wouldn't this kill off the bacteria without applying the bicarbonate solution? Another thing that I did not understand is why bicarbonate would kill the bacteria to begin with. Even a saturated bicarbonate solution is not very alkaline. But if it works, then that is great. I like the idea of using a bicarbonate solution since it is essentially atoxic.
 

93rdCanadian

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The one thing I did not understand was that the author said that the bacteria die at about 50 degrees Celsius. I believe that during the flue curing process, temperatures are much higher - so wouldn't this kill off the bacteria without applying the bicarbonate solution?

Under bold heading 7 on page 6 of the pdf file is their reasoning on TSNA production during flue curing; essentially speaking the file reads that TSNA production is boosted by oxides of nitrogen released during the combustion of a fuel source for flue curing.
 

SmokeStack

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essentially speaking the file reads that TSNA production is boosted by oxides of nitrogen released during the combustion of a fuel source for flue curing.

But I thought that when flue-curing nowadays, the exhaust is vented away from the tobacco. Maybe not every farmer is setup this way. Anyway, the interesting about this patent is that it mentions bacteria as the culprit for producing TSNAs. I thought it had to do with the chemistry in the plant leaf - that is, enzyme catalysis.
 
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