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Shine, vodka, white whisky... what's the difference?

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Matty

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I been wondering about this for a few days now, maybe someone here can help out. When I go to the liquor store, I can find vodka made from all sorts of things, potatoe, wheat, rye, grapes, corn... Why is corn vodka, vodka, and not white whisky? Ain't shine made from corn? It gets confusing. Brandy is from grape wine but why isn't white brandy called vodka? Then there's white rye, white whiskey and white bourbon? Then of course there's all the different schnapps but that's getting way to confusing. Is shine, shine, 'cause it ain't sold in a store or taxed by the gov'ment and that's it?
 

SmokesAhoy

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vodka :colorless, oderless, tasteless. column distillation
whiskey : can be anything including bulk chinese spirits that received "whiskey flavoring" or were aged in the oak casks.
bourbon: the best. to legally be called bourbon it needs to undergo certain procedures. even the worst bourbon is still good. best if pot distilled
moonshine : generic term for homemade etoh. can be the finest whiskey you ever tasted, or something that will make you blind if it doesnt kill you first.
 

johnlee1933

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In my mind it all has to do with controlled impurities. Proof is Proof. 80 proof is 40% ethanol. 100 proof is 50%. Now we get to the complex part. The impurities, where they come from, what color are they, etc. are what gives you different flavors. Take anything you can ferment with yeast into alcohol and you have a start. You have to be careful in your choice to be sure it is ethanol not methanol (wood alcohol). Almost any grain will work, actually, any sugar or starch so potatoes work just fine as do berries and most fruits. Trying to tell you which of the above is best, how to ferment it, how to distill it the "right" way and then maybe how to age it is way beyond me. I can run a laboratory fractional distillation column and bring off fractions that are really close but there is no way I could make a passable potable. LOL -·- John
 

FmGrowit

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I call everything I make Rum. I don't see any need to waste perfectly good grain and go through all of the ritual to extract sugar when I can buy a 5# bag of sugar for $2.59. I use a reflux still and achieve 180 proof consistently. After diluting to 90 proof, I age it with charred White Oak strips in mason jars. People tell me it the best bourbon they ever had.

As far as I know...(which isn't a lot) the spirit takes its name from the sugar source from which it is derived.
 

ve3sws

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vodka :colorless, oderless, tasteless. column distillation
whiskey : can be anything including bulk chinese spirits that received "whiskey flavoring" or were aged in the oak casks.
bourbon: the best. to legally be called bourbon it needs to undergo certain procedures. even the worst bourbon is still good. best if pot distilled
moonshine : generic term for homemade etoh. can be the finest whiskey you ever tasted, or something that will make you blind if it doesnt kill you first.

I think you nailed it, Smokes. Bourbon also has to be distilled in Kentucky to be legally called Bourbon. Special water sources are important regarding Bourbon ( I was a Wild Turkey nut for years...). Also, the reflux still strips all original flavor from the mash, thus vodka is distilled a couple of times to become 99% pure. Then you select 'special' water from an iceberg or glacier or something else that sounds cool in an advertisement, and add that back to the alcohol to get your different vodka notes. Pot stills are a less efficient still and many of the finer notes from the mash travel into the alcohol product. Also, pot stills allow for an angled copper column and helmet to capture the aromatic compounds & flavors. I believe moss is added to the swan neck for making scotch. The mash ingredients make a big difference in flavours in pot distillations - corn, or malted barley, etc. You can put anything through a reflux still and it's going to end up vodka.
 

SmokesAhoy

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peat moss is the easiest thing to burn there, they burn it in room sized ovens to stop the germination of the grain before mashing. that's scotch for you. swamp mulch smoke flavored whiskey.

yes, i know i pissed people off, i think i live far enough away that it doesnt matter though haha :)
 

Matty

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Some scotch tastes like cheap whisky and cigarette butts, like islay scotch. I like highland a lot better.
So, can we say that shine is just homemade vodka?
 

DonH

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Some scotch tastes like cheap whisky and cigarette butts, like islay scotch. I like highland a lot better.
So, can we say that shine is just homemade vodka?
Gotta disagree with you there. Islay malts taste like expensive whiskey and expensive cigars.
 

Frozenthunderbolt

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To borrow from the parent site of another forum i belong to:
Definitions of Distilled Spirits

I've taken the following from the American Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (BATF) website, from their Standards of Identity for Distilled Spirits. I've edited it a fair bit, trying to make it easier to read & understand. So if its important to you, go and get the full version for yourself (its about 32 pages long). Also, these definitions may vary from country to country.

Some terms used ...

Gallon : U.S. gallon of 231 cubic inches of alcoholic beverage at 60 °F
Proof gallon A gallon of liquid at 60 °F which contains 50 percent by volume of ethyl alcohol.. or the alcoholic equivalent thereof (eg 2 gallons at 25% a/v...) Standards of Identity for Distilled Spirits

Neutral spirits or alcohol.

Neutral spirits or alcohol are distilled from any material at or above 95% a/v, and if bottled, bottled at not less than 40% a/v
  • Vodka is neutral spirit distilled, or treated after distillation with charcoal or other materials, to be without distinctive character, aroma, taste, or color.
  • Grain spirits are neutral spirits distilled from a fermented mash of grain and stored in oak containers.
Whisky.

Whisky is distilled from a fermented mash of grain at less than 95% a/v, such that it possesses the taste, aroma, and characteristics generally attributed to whisky, stored in oak containers (except that corn whisky need not be so stored), and bottled at not less than 40% a/v
  • Bourbon whisky, rye whisky, wheat whisky, malt whisky, or rye malt whisky is whisky produced at not less than 80% a/v from a fermented mash of not less than 51% corn, rye, wheat, malted barley, or malted rye grain, respectively, and stored at not more than 62.5% a/v in charred new oak containers; and also includes mixtures of such whiskies of the same type.
  • Corn whisky is whisky produced at not exceeding 80% purity from a fermented mash of not less than 80% corn grain, and if stored in oak containers stored at not more than 62.5% a/v in used or uncharred new oak containers and not subjected in any manner to treatment with charred wood.
  • If they have been stored in the type of oak containers prescribed, for a period of 2 years or more, they can be further designated as straight; for example, ``straight bourbon whisky'' or ``straight corn whisky''
  • Light whisky is whisky produced at more than 80% a/v, and stored in used or uncharred new oak containers.
  • Blended whisky is a mixture which contains straight whisky or a blend of straight whiskies at not less than 20 percent on a proof gallon basis. If it contains not less than 51 percent on a proof gallon basis of one of the types of straight whisky it shall be further designated by that specific type of straight whisky; for example, ``blended rye whisky''
  • Scotch whisky can only be made in Scotland
  • Irish whisky can only be made in Ireland
  • Canadian whisky - I'll let ya try and guess this one
Gin

Gin is a product obtained by
  • original distillation from mash, or by redistillation of distilled spirits, or by mixing neutral spirits,
  • with or over juniper berries and other aromatics,
  • or with or over extracts derived from infusions, percolations, or maceration of such materials,
  • and includes mixtures of gin and neutral spirits.
It shall derive its main characteristic flavor from juniper berries and be bottled at not less than 40% a/v. Brandy

Brandy is an alcoholic distillate from the fermented juice, mash, or wine of fruit, or from the residue thereof, produced at less than 95% a/v in such manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma, and characteristics generally attributed to the product, and bottled at not less than 40 % a/v
  • Fruit brandy is brandy distilled solely from the fermented juice or mash of whole, sound, ripe fruit, or from standard grape, citrus, or other fruit wine, with or without the addition of not more than 20 percent by weight of the pomace of such juice or wine, or 30 percent by volume of the lees of such wine, or both. If it hasn't been aged for at least 2 years in an oak container, it is called "immature" (even if say its been on oak chips for >2 years).
  • Cognac is grape brandy distilled in the Cognac region of France
  • Dried fruit brandy is brandy that conforms to the standard for fruit brandy except that it has been derived from sound, dried fruit, or from the standard wine of such fruit. Brandy derived from raisins, or from raisin wine, shall be designated as ``raisin brandy''. Other brandies shall be designated in the same manner as fruit brandy from the corresponding variety or varieties of fruit except that the name of the fruit shall be qualified by the word ``dried''.
  • Lees brandy is brandy distilled from the lees of standard grape, citrus, or other fruit wine
  • Pomace brandy, or marc brandy, is brandy distilled from the skin and pulp of sound, ripe grapes, citrus or other fruit, after the withdrawal of the juice or wine therefrom. Grape pomace brandy may be designated as grappa or grappa brandy.
  • Residue brandy is brandy distilled wholly or in part from the fermented residue of fruit or wine,
  • Neutral brandy is brandy produced at more than 85% a/v
Rum

Rum is an alcoholic distillate from the fermented juice of sugar cane, sugar cane syrup, sugar cane molasses, or other sugar cane by-products, produced at less than 95% a/v in such manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma and characteristics generally attributed to rum, and bottled at not less than 40% a/v. Tequila

Tequila is an alcoholic distillate from a fermented mash derived principally from the Agave Tequilana Weber (``blue'' variety), with or without additional fermentable substances, distilled in such a manner that the distillate possesses the taste, aroma, and characteristics generally attributed to Tequila and bottled at not less than 40% a/v, and made in Mexico. Cordials and Liqueurs

Cordials and liqueurs are products obtained by mixing or redistilling distilled spirits with or over fruits, flowers, plants, or pure juices therefrom, or other natural flavoring materials, or with extracts derived from infusions, percolation, or maceration of such materials, and containing sugar, dextrose, or levulose, or a combination thereof, in an amount not less than 2.5 percent by weight of the finished product.

To which I would add:

Shine:
This generally refers to what we would call a "sugar-head" wash where the flavour comes from a fruit or grain, and the alcohol is provided by added sugar. It most often refers to a "sugar head whisky" cracked corn, water, sugar, yeast and possibly some nutrients of some sort.
There are also sugar head 'brandies' for instance i make a plum brandy (legally; I live in NZ where you may legally distill for personal consumption only, YMMV) That uses 4-5 kg plums in 20L water, this wouldn't contain anything like enough natural sugar, so i add 3kg of white table sugar. The plum provide the flavour and the sugar the alcohol.

Sugar-shine is what a lot of the home-still sellers on line tout.
These commonly use far too much sugar and "Turbo-yeast" which create are pushed to a massive ABV by crazy amounts of nutrients, are stressed and then produce off flavors.
This subsequently necessitates the use of turbo clear before distilling and then carbon filtering afterwards, and you STILL end up with an inferior product (which the brew shop will sell you "essences" to flavour).
Of course the brew shops love this as it gives them the chance to sell you a bunch of crap at huge mark up that you don't need.

If one wanted to find a GOOD sugar shine recipe for tasty and clean "neutral" they should Google "wineos plain ol sugar wash" or "birdwatchers sugar wash recipe"
If one wanted a vodka (authentic eastern european vodkas have a hint of the grain taste and some mouth feel remaining) then google " Rad's allbran" Or "Deathwish Wheatgerm whiskey"

Hope this clears things up - course others will disagree with some of the points above, but that's just dandy; would be a boring world if we all thought alike.
 

Knucklehead

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The use of sugar and yeast was introduced to shine making to increase the yield and ease of manufacture. Shine was originally made with ground unsprouted corn and ground sprouted corn with water. The ground sprouted corn provides the fermentable material. This is known as pure corn whiskey or 100% corn whiskey. Sugar can be added to increase the yield per bushel of corn but it's use is regarded as degrading the quality and the product is no longer pure corn whiskey.
Very few distillers use this method anymore but it is considered to produce a superior grade of corn whiskey.

Two different types of stills were used. The original style did not utilize a thumper barrel and required saving all the product from several first runs. These were called singlings. All the singlings were saved and run through again to produce the doublings, or double strength whiskey. It is filtered through rags and charcoal as it comes out of the worm.This was then cut down to about 80 proof.
The newer style of still uses a thumper barrel that contains mash and only requires running the product one time. The steam from the pot is directed to the bottom of the thumper and then an outlet at the top of the thumper directs the steam to the worm for cooling and condensing. However each run will produce tailings at the end where the proof has decreased and the whiskey quality has deteriorated. These tailing will need to be separated and added to the next batch.
 

Randy

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What do you get when you mix 80%corn-12%barley-8%rye+water heat to 210*F then let sit 3-5 days then run throgh steam distiller then filter throgh hickory charcoal then put in oak barrels for 8-12 years??
 

Randy

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I rember this recipe from first of many trips to Lynchburgh Tn abt 30-min drive south of here..and your rite-on BigBonner the 12+yr is sooo smooth!!

Randy
 

Randy

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SmokeAhoy its kinda like "Great Cigars" you have to plan many years ahead!! yea there are short-cuts to anything in life..the real pleasures come to those who not only wait..but plan years in advance.if I have learned anything from reading abt growing tobacco in last few months it is this!! I two was ready to start growing tobacco like sweet corn:till;plant;wait abt 80-90 days;harvest;then eat!! but the more I dug into the truth abt aging the tobacco leaf I realized its a long-term plan years ahead type program just wished have learned this stuff abt 5-10 yrs ago LOL

Randy
 

SmokesAhoy

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My cider doesn't last a month in this house. The thing with tobacco vs booze is booze is perfectly fine the second it's done. People try fresh tobacco and just about kill themselves
 

Frozenthunderbolt

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The thing with tobacco vs booze is booze is perfectly fine the second it's done. People try fresh tobacco and just about kill themselves

Straight off the still, even once proofed can be perty rough too . . .
Time does wonders,
Oak + time can be awe inspiring
Batch distillation of a good recipe with good cuts and blending + oak + Time is out of this world ;)
 
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