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Chamber Fermentation Tobacco in piles

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workhorse_01

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Your right amax! We don't need to look at it from a commercial point of view. We are only after the best end product we can get. I've been playing around with liquid smoke for instance, to keep the tar off the leaf. For GOD sakes don't stop with your post's now i'd be lost. LOL. I'm closing in the end of my barn to do a dual purpose cure then kiln. I'm trying to figure out if just leaving them to hang or to pile them this year will give me the best flavor. The space I'm working is about 10' x 4' and 8' tall well insulated with dampers for fresh air. I can get a 70,000 btu furnace scratch & dent for about $150.00 It's good to be a Carrier dealer! I should have way more than I need for the cure/kiln, but I'll be doing this in the winter, and if I zone it my barn will then be conditioned space. My wife says I'll never have to leave.
I am thinking more on the lines of our situation as opposed to commercial.
We have our kilns they are heated and humidity is introduced I feel this changes the picture a little.
From my prior batch I know if in a pile and not disturbed over the weeks the quality of the tobacco on the interior is better than that on the outside.
125F & 70% Humidity
The moisture of the leaf on the outside is lower than that of the inside if there is a fair amount of air movement. However if the air movement is reduced
the moisture will increase.

My current batch was placed in a large vented wood box and first 2 weeks 120F 75% humidity, 3rd week 114F 85% humidity, 4th week 129F 85% humidity.
In the 3rd week I sampled the smoke was good and the tobacco had a nice smell of apricots. The 4th week smoke quality dropped & apricot smell was gone.
I have entered a 5th week with changes
Tobacco is in small cardboard boxes and 115F 88% humidity 4 days in to the week there is improvement.
Temperatures are those of the tobacco not the air around it.
Am beginning to believe that if small bundles that can be reorder easily with low temperatures and high humidity will create a better finished tobacco.
Also my tobacco seems to stay about 10F higher than temperature setting.
 

AmaxB

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That bit about the plastic or chunk of board under the bale is interesting BigB and goes right along with things I have read mostly about how the big boys do it.
The fact that some will introduce steam to a room with bulked tobacco is interesting to.
The one video workhorse provided a link to was of interest as well, they had small round bundles in long rowed stacks 4 or 5 feet high and would rotate the bundles.

We have a closed area / kiln / chamber and can control it's environment our tobacco is usually cured and dry.
We can heat it so we don't need to rely on it building it's own heat all though it may reach a higher temperature than what we set for the environment.
We can also add moisture to it so being it is dry is no problem.
This gives way to a wide range of manipulation of the tobacco.
For me I ask what will give me a good smoke and am trying to find the better method.
Hell we can even flavor it while aging. Makes my head swim!

A bit of inside info. My heat box failed just before doing so my insulation began to not burn but kind of smolder. The chamber filled with smoke (rancid stuff)
this tainted the tobacco a little bit. It gave the tobacco this settle under taste and I was hoping it would escape the tobacco the way the other not wanted
attributes do with the fermentation. I had no luck it was still there the end of the 4th week. This is one reason I started experimenting, now when I open the
door I can smell that rancidness and it bothers my eyes a little. So I think it is working and the last sampling I have been smoking all day today and hardly notice
it at all.
Just trying to get folks to chime in here.

I think if humidity is kept below 90% and air flow along with temperatures (even low temps) are where they need be mold can be avoided.
If the tobacco gets to wet how ever it may mold. I am going to experiment with low temp and high humidity after repair to my heat box.
 

AmaxB

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Your right amax! We don't need to look at it from a commercial point of view. We are only after the best end product we can get. I've been playing around with liquid smoke for instance, to keep the tar off the leaf. For GOD sakes don't stop with your post's now i'd be lost. LOL. I'm closing in the end of my barn to do a dual purpose cure then kiln. I'm trying to figure out if just leaving them to hang or to pile them this year will give me the best flavor. The space I'm working is about 10' x 4' and 8' tall well insulated with dampers for fresh air. I can get a 70,000 btu furnace scratch & dent for about $150.00 It's good to be a Carrier dealer! I should have way more than I need for the cure/kiln, but I'll be doing this in the winter, and if I zone it my barn will then be conditioned space. My wife says I'll never have to leave.

Be sure to add method to drain excess water
 

jekylnz

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Hey max a few friends of mine used to load the flues in motuaka at the top of the sth is. (Tobacco country in nz) & they said they used to just pile them into a Wire mesh rack system.the piles were about15- 20cm deep? I don't know if this helps you at all??he said he didn't remember them doing it over a 144 hour period either (6 days) he said he thought it was much faster...like 16 -24 hours...bigger..faster I don't know??
 

AmaxB

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Be sure to add method to drain excess water
drain for the kiln section...shoot man your a heat guy you got her worked out. That is going to be a pretty good size.
Had ya looked at chickens set up?
I'm going to try the little bundles make em each about a pound or two and see where that goes. Taking off from that video
for cigar leaf.
 

AmaxB

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Hey max a few friends of mine used to load the flues in motuaka at the top of the sth is. (Tobacco country in nz) & they said they used to just pile them into a Wire mesh rack system.the piles were about15- 20cm deep? I don't know if this helps you at all??he said he didn't remember them doing it over a 144 hour period either (6 days) he said he thought it was much faster...like 16 -24 hours...bigger..faster I don't know??
I think they were flue curing
 

leverhead

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Hey max a few friends of mine used to load the flues in motuaka at the top of the sth is. (Tobacco country in nz) & they said they used to just pile them into a Wire mesh rack system.the piles were about15- 20cm deep? I don't know if this helps you at all??he said he didn't remember them doing it over a 144 hour period either (6 days) he said he thought it was much faster...like 16 -24 hours...bigger..faster I don't know??

I think they were flue curing

Not in 16 - 24 hrs. If they were working multiple "barns", the total hours might have gotten lost in the shuffle. The racks sound right to be flue-curing.
 

AmaxB

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Today's readings
Ambient Temperature 114.8F - Tobacco Temperature 122F - Humidity 89.3% - Air Flow is zero I have no Mold leads me to believe air
flow plays a smaller part than I had thought in avoiding Mold. It must be the tobacco Temperature it's self in relation to mold issues.

A few photos
The look of Condensation note it is on metal only for the most part near the door - condensation.JPG
.
The griddle is the only source of Heat and Humidity it is just under 300F - griddle.JPG
.
Thermal Probe in the Tobacco - tc-tobacco.JPG
.
The boxes and a small test going on Turkish in the white cup - tobacco in boxes.JPG
.
I have removed most of the other tobacco that was part of what was in the large wood box.
Also need to correct my dates checked start date of this batch this morning it was 5-18-13 so my tobacco is only 2 days into the 5th week.
The smoking quality is good and flavor has improved a lot am tempted to remove it but will let it complete the 5th week.
Much of what I have read in the book Tobacco Culture is holding true for the most part.
I like the smaller separate groups of the tobacco shown in picture above, because the moisture of the tobacco seems to be pretty uniform.
If you move it around and feel through the piles it feels the same through out.
 

johnlee1933

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Today's readings
Ambient Temperature 114.8F - Tobacco Temperature 122F - Humidity 89.3% - Air Flow is zero I have no Mold leads me to believe air
flow plays a smaller part than I had thought in avoiding Mold. It must be the tobacco Temperature it's self in relation to mold issues.

The smoking quality is good and flavor has improved a lot am tempted to remove it but will let it complete the 5th week.
.
I agree. My commercial guy has his in heavy duty cardboard boxes lined with a type of moisture proof paper but not sealed. Obviously there is little or no air circulation there.

Deluxe has commented several times and I agree that you should let is sit/hang for several weeks before making a flavor/harshness evaluation.
 

AmaxB

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I agree. My commercial guy has his in heavy duty cardboard boxes lined with a type of moisture proof paper but not sealed. Obviously there is little or no air circulation there.

Deluxe has commented several times and I agree that you should let is sit/hang for several weeks before making a flavor/harshness evaluation.
Absolutely to test (sample) before the mid 3rd week won't tell you much, my samples have been mid end 3rd week this is when it was smelling like Apricots (flue cured bright leaf),
the end 4th week sample was a bout 3 ounces am still smoking this. Will be interesting to see what it is like after the 5th week.
The burley I'll continue with later I have set it aside for now I could be wrong but feel it needs 5 to 6 weeks.
In the book or maybe it was a PDF I had read it was said to open the door every day to allow fresh air in and old air out. I have been doing this and it is having little impact
on temperature, humidity, the process in general. To me it is indicating no need to keep the door closed through the entire period of aging and that leads to a much easier
build of a working kiln.
I have a small fridge in my garage that I have not used in a few years I am thinking of converting it to a kiln only.
 

DonH

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Absolutely to test (sample) before the mid 3rd week won't tell you much, my samples have been mid end 3rd week this is when it was smelling like Apricots (flue cured bright leaf),
the end 4th week sample was a bout 3 ounces am still smoking this. Will be interesting to see what it is like after the 5th week.
The burley I'll continue with later I have set it aside for now I could be wrong but feel it needs 5 to 6 weeks.
In the book or maybe it was a PDF I had read it was said to open the door every day to allow fresh air in and old air out. I have been doing this and it is having little impact
on temperature, humidity, the process in general. To me it is indicating no need to keep the door closed through the entire period of aging and that leads to a much easier
build of a working kiln.
I have a small fridge in my garage that I have not used in a few years I am thinking of converting it to a kiln only.
What Johnlee is talking about is letting it sit for several weeks AFTER you take it out of the kiln, I think, not how long you keep it in there.
 

johnlee1933

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What Johnlee is talking about is letting it sit for several weeks AFTER you take it out of the kiln, I think, not how long you keep it in there.
No, it sits in the kiln for 4/5 weeks and then is ready to be shipped to the buyer. How long he lets sit is unknown.
 

DonH

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But I have heard that letting it rest a while after taking it out of the kiln can improve the taste.
 

AmaxB

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I agree. My commercial guy has his in heavy duty cardboard boxes lined with a type of moisture proof paper but not sealed. Obviously there is little or no air circulation there.

Deluxe has commented several times and I agree that you should let is sit/hang for several weeks before making a flavor/harshness evaluation.
A little while ago I had to open the box up while open I reached in and down along the sides of the tobacco to see how moist it felt. I have had -0- air movement the last few days some of the tobacco
along sides and bottom of the boxes felt all most wet this would explain the moisture proof paper your friend uses, I turned my blower back on will lose some RH but better than risking mold.
 

jekylnz

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So max are you doing this fermentation after kiln cure??

Also today is 4 weeks in my kiln....should I take it out now to sit for a few weeks or keep it going longer..is another 2 weeks in kiln much more beneficial? ??
 
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