Buy Tobacco Leaf Online | Whole Leaf Tobacco

Chamber Fermentation Tobacco in piles

Status
Not open for further replies.

AmaxB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
2,436
Points
0
Location
Inwood West Virginia
Chamber Fermentation Tobacco in piles

A 15 plus day cycle is implied

Is suggested a temperature of 20C (68F) for day 1 and 10C (50F) increase over the next 3 days
reaching 50C (122F).

Humidity is introduced to 90% (is stated: it is important to keep humidity at 90%)

It is also suggested air in the chamber should be evacuated daily to provide new oxygen for the tobacco pile. Tobacco pile temperature checked everyday and Tobacco Pile temperature will be (should be) 10C (50F) higher than that of the chamber interior. (Note I think this applies to large piles).


It is implied a chamber temperature of 40C (104F) should result in an inner pile temperature of
50C (122F) the required temperature.

It is stated when this temperature is reached it is maintained for a number of days and samples should be taken. Dependent on the samples the pile should be reformed (Tobacco in the inner pile will have a higher progression of fermentation than that of the outer pile).
Reforming the pile the top and bottom should be moved to the middle. As they dry due to the airing of the chamber and will ferment less that the middle.

It is stated that (IF) the pile is reformed correctly two cycles will be all that is needed in the process and the tobacco should be ready for use.
I take it a cycle is 15 days.

Source of information:
Fermentation and Aging of Cured and Re-Dried Tobacco Leaves (Albert Zevenhuizen)

I feel this could be a good rule of thumb - Chamber size and tobacco mass my impact

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

British-American Tobacco Report

It is interesting to have seen in a report for research conducted by British-American Tobacco
that Oriental Tobacco is Fermented.

When Fermenting Tobacco Nicotine can be lost (this is desirable of Tobaccos very high in Nicotine)
at a rate of 1.5 to 53%. But how ever PH can be increased resulting in greater impact to the smoker and an increase in Nicotine transfer to the smoker.

In Japan it was reported that beneficial effects can be gotten with Burley if Fermented at 50C (122F) and a RH of 82% over 60 days. But if at 30C (86F) a poorer quality would be the result.

Carbon Monoxide delivery in fermented Air-Cured and Oriental showed a reduction of 1/3[SUP]rd[/SUP]. Also Flue Cured if Fermented with the use of Bakers Yeast Flue Cured showed a reduction of as much as 1/3[SUP]rd[/SUP] also.

A greater reduction was noted of an American Cigarette blended of Virginia and Turkish using Yest Fermentation CO was reduced by 64% but if blended further with other tobaccos this reduction was lost.

Low Delivery Cigarettes – Fermentation could have a role in the development of cigarettes of this type in order to make consumer acceptable products without the addition of Humectants or Casings.

It is cited: Fermentations might be applied for the improvement of product attributes
Irritation levels are reduced
There is an increase of Nicotine transfer
Enhanced Flavor
No need for casings
 

AmaxB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
2,436
Points
0
Location
Inwood West Virginia
In regard to Kilning of Tobacco there were some interesting points made in the above thread
Air replacement daily guess it is OK to open the kiln door if venting is not present, but tobacco mass temperature should be maintained.
Humidity to 90% is interesting

Currently the Tobacco in my chamber has a center of tobacco mass temperature of 122F and humidity is 85.4% over the last 4 days.
The chamber interior air temperature is 47C or 116.6F
The Tobacco is damp and has no mold present
I have opened the door every day over the last 4 to fill my water container and briefly check the tobacco
Am using a griddle with water container on it griddle is set at 300F, chamber is 45 cubic feet with continuous closed air flow.
I could increase to 90% humidity but the tobacco mass temperature of 122F would increase according to the information in post #1 above
122F is the temperature to hold so I won't.
I may remove the tobacco to reform the pile but is something I am thinking about, being it is in the wooden box there may not be a need to
reform the pile.
Should add I am using no venting and have 7 days to hit 30 remaining. I think I will leave the Burley in for 50 days
 

AmaxB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
2,436
Points
0
Location
Inwood West Virginia
Have reformed my pile and think hanging or making 2 to 4 pound bundles stacking them allowing moisture to all the tobacco will yield better results.
When reforming it I made layers and 1 - 2 inch gap between the layers with layers around 12 inches thick.
The first section of post #1 this thread comes from a PDF link posted by leverhead post number 2 in this thread http://fairtradetobacco.com/showthread.php?1395-Changes-in-flue-cured-tobacco-as-it-ages
 

AmaxB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
2,436
Points
0
Location
Inwood West Virginia
Been reading about this & trying to find more on how to plus why. I think it is pretty guarded information unless it is dated.
Every thing I have read has one thing in common that is that when cured the next step is to age.
I'll be doing another batch after making changes to my box this batch will be very planed.
Am also thinking of building a chamber to force ferment only but that will be next year if I do it.

Check the book out in Post #4 is written in story form and full of information the book is from 1904 I'm about a third of the way through it now.
I've been watching these video's and it looks like your right on time with yours. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=5HOz8hPcsbk
 

workhorse_01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
1,959
Points
0
Location
Waycross,Ga.
I'm a few pages through reading this http://books.google.com/books?id=w4Z...obacco&f=false Which I thank you for posting, but it looks as though they didn't use a heat source other than the tobacco's own natural ability to heat up while fermenting, and then when they reach 133* or so to redistribute the piles after shaking then the heat wont be as high. What amazes me is that fermenting is the time that if you desired to add flavor, as in low gum tobacco is treated with stem soup and sour wine. Makes me wonder what something like corn liquor would bring to the table?
 

AmaxB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
2,436
Points
0
Location
Inwood West Virginia
The book it was written in 1904 and If I am not mistaken they did not start forced fermentation until the 1930s in Poland
I was shocked after removing my tobacco and rearranging it the time to get back to 122F and 85%RH was just a few hours.
When starting the process with the amount of tobacco I put in it takes 24 hours roughly. I found the adding of flavor interesting too.
I agree with you the processes described give some insight and hints as to what we might want to do.
 

workhorse_01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
1,959
Points
0
Location
Waycross,Ga.
It's a very good read. I'm going to base my cure around it this year. It's proven it's self over time. Thank you again for posting the link
I correct myself they did indeed force fermentation when this book was published.
 

AmaxB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
2,436
Points
0
Location
Inwood West Virginia
I read some where you could go as high as 130F. But I think that may be a bit to hot MY HUMBLE thought is 115 to 127. I also feel bundles might be better than piles on a small scale
unless pile is vented between layers. Any input on this?
 

workhorse_01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
1,959
Points
0
Location
Waycross,Ga.
The e-book said the weight had a big role in the inner part of the pile's ability to heat up. They did say that they let it go to 130*F but stop there. I think if you stop at 127*F the tobacco wont know but you must watch the moisture, & stop it at 127* un-pile it, shake it out, then re-pile it. If it's too dry at that point dip the ends in a solution of boiled stems pepper juice and sour wine, I believe it said.( The book said It wouldn't go higher than 127* - 130*
 
Last edited:

deluxestogie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
23,931
Points
113
Location
near Blacksburg, VA
My guess is that the weight is probably not much of a factor in traditional pile-fermentation. If you consider that the psi in the center of the bulk is computed by the weight of 1 square inch of tobacco stacked 1/2 the height of the pile (or even if you compute the entire height), we're only in the range of ~2-3 psi, if that. My take is that the pile functions merely as insulation and evaporative barrier, allowing the heat of the exothermic chemical reactions in the center of the pile to build up. The margins of the pile, even at the bottom of the pile, do not heat.

Bob
 

johnlee1933

Moderator
Founding Member
Joined
Aug 21, 2011
Messages
3,970
Points
0
Location
Near Danbury, CT
My guess is that the weight is probably not much of a factor in traditional pile-fermentation. If you consider that the psi in the center of the bulk is computed by the weight of 1 square inch of tobacco stacked 1/2 the height of the pile (or even if you compute the entire height), we're only in the range of ~2-3 psi, if that. My take is that the pile functions merely as insulation and evaporative barrier, allowing the heat of the exothermic chemical reactions in the center of the pile to build up. The margins of the pile, even at the bottom of the pile, do not heat.Bob
I think this is correct. The CT shade guy I know described what they do after color curing. The leaf is packed, using quite a lot of pressure, in cardboard boxes lined with a heavy waxed paper. The boxes have pre drilled holes in the sides for the insertion of a thermal probe. They are put in a 109 º F room for a number of days (30 I think I remember). The temp in the center of the bales is monitored and they are shifted in and out of the heat as required. I know it is above 109 º but I do not know what temp they do try to hold. The boxes while tightly packed are not under pressure during this treatment.
 

workhorse_01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
1,959
Points
0
Location
Waycross,Ga.
It's an old book and it's not specific, but after re-reading it does look like a insulation process. I sure would like to taste some of the old time product, and in other cases maybe not. My dad said when they would take their tobacco to the auction in Kingstree SC. in the late 40's, They were some picky people. Dad says nothing slipped by "American wanted the best and weren't afraid to pay for it".
My guess is that the weight is probably not much of a factor in traditional pile-fermentation. If you consider that the psi in the center of the bulk is computed by the weight of 1 square inch of tobacco stacked 1/2 the height of the pile (or even if you compute the entire height), we're only in the range of ~2-3 psi, if that. My take is that the pile functions merely as insulation and evaporative barrier, allowing the heat of the exothermic chemical reactions in the center of the pile to build up. The margins of the pile, even at the bottom of the pile, do not heat.

Bob
 

AmaxB

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
2,436
Points
0
Location
Inwood West Virginia
I am thinking more on the lines of our situation as opposed to commercial.
We have our kilns they are heated and humidity is introduced I feel this changes the picture a little.
From my prior batch I know if in a pile and not disturbed over the weeks the quality of the tobacco on the interior is better than that on the outside.
125F & 70% Humidity
The moisture of the leaf on the outside is lower than that of the inside if there is a fair amount of air movement. However if the air movement is reduced
the moisture will increase.

My current batch was placed in a large vented wood box and first 2 weeks 120F 75% humidity, 3rd week 114F 85% humidity, 4th week 129F 85% humidity.
In the 3rd week I sampled the smoke was good and the tobacco had a nice smell of apricots. The 4th week smoke quality dropped & apricot smell was gone.
I have entered a 5th week with changes
Tobacco is in small cardboard boxes and 115F 88% humidity 4 days in to the week there is improvement.
Temperatures are those of the tobacco not the air around it.
Am beginning to believe that if small bundles that can be reorder easily with low temperatures and high humidity will create a better finished tobacco.
Also my tobacco seems to stay about 10F higher than temperature setting.
 

BigBonner

Moderator
Founding Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
1,671
Points
63
Location
Kentucky
When we put down tobacco sometimes it will be in high case or the stalks will be fresh green and they add moisture to the leaves when bulk down for stripping .
If the leaves are in a high case and baled tight they will heat up and ferment on their own .If they are staked four bales high the ones that are lower will have the most heat in them . They will smell sweet and hot to the touch .
The outside of the bottom bale will be cool but if there is plastic or plywood under the bottom bale it will be hot all the way down .
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top