Buy Tobacco Leaf Online | Whole Leaf Tobacco

Degree of ripeness for chewing tobacco

Status
Not open for further replies.

squeezyjohn

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2012
Messages
1,007
Points
48
Location
Oxford - UK
Hello - I wonder if anyone could help me with this:

There has been plenty of talk here about ripeness and harvesting with regards to smoking tobacco. When looking to make a chewing tobacco (twist in my case) - I'm aiming for thick leaves strong in nicotine with good chewing flavour but not too bitter. Am I right in thinking that I should be over-ripening the leaves intended for this kind of use before harvesting?

Leathery is good - it doesn't matter how it burns - but bitterness is a real issue as I will be attempting to make an unusual type of central european unsweetened, but salty chewing tobacco. Will leaving the leaves on the plants up to 6 weeks after flowering give me something too bitter?

The main variety I'm using for this is Black Stalk Mammoth.

Thanks
 

deluxestogie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
23,931
Points
113
Location
near Blacksburg, VA
I can't speak to your central questions.

I often leave until late in the season tip leaf on the otherwise bare stalk, to allow it to fully thicken. I use this as cigar condiment filler--extremely rich and intense. What I have found with this practice is that leaf handled in that way often requires nearly the entire winter to color. (When kilned, it is commonly the color of espresso beans.) It needs considerably more age in order to not be acrid in "pouch" aroma. When it's done, it's wonderful. But the way over-ripe leaf needs a lot more time.

Bob
 

squeezyjohn

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2012
Messages
1,007
Points
48
Location
Oxford - UK
That's very helpful Bob. I've experienced leaf like that and I think it would probably be too bitter to consume as chew. No doubt that it would be fantastic as a cigar blend though. Colour curing here is hard at the best of times ... maybe time for a re-think then.
 

Knucklehead

Moderator
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
12,171
Points
113
Location
NE Alabama
You may have to experiment this year. Let some go longer and compare. I would think you would want to do this with different plants and keep up with the stalk position, as stalk position will change the strength. Compare earlier harvested mid level leaves to later harvested mid level leaves, etc.
 

Matty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
698
Points
28
Location
Sherbrooke, Quebec
I too am puzzled by the bitterness of raw cured leaf. I've chewed just about every tobacco that's been available to me and they are all very bitter. Thing is that I dunno if this is a ripeness issue or processing issue? For there to be enough nicotine the leaf has to be fairly ripe, right? I can't figure where the bitterness is coming from. Anyone that's made the black cavendish feel like popping some their mouth to see if it's bitter? I'd do it myself but have none on hand.
 

deluxestogie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
23,931
Points
113
Location
near Blacksburg, VA
Anything for science. I have never been a user of chew or snuff. I placed a piece of broken coin of my recently made Cavendish from Bolivia Criollo Black into my mouth. It has not been modified by flavorings or other casings. The deep brown tobacco is savory and smooth on the tongue. No sensation of acidity or bitterness. It really got the saliva going.

So...In lieu of adequate aging or kilning, a Cavendish method seems to subdue the bitter taste from freshly color-cured leaf.

Bob
 

Knucklehead

Moderator
Founding Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2012
Messages
12,171
Points
113
Location
NE Alabama
Anything for science. I have never been a user of chew or snuff. I placed a piece of broken coin of my recently made Cavendish from Bolivia Criollo Black into my mouth. It has not been modified by flavorings or other casings. The deep brown tobacco is savory and smooth on the tongue. No sensation of acidity or bitterness. It really got the saliva going.

So...In lieu of adequate aging or kilning, a Cavendish method seems to subdue the bitter taste from freshly color-cured leaf.

Bob

That's taking one for the team, Bob.
 

jekylnz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
1,357
Points
48
Location
Auckland, New Zealand, New Zealand
there must be quite a few companies that do chew strips etc?? ? Maybe they could help you find out more about the age of the harvested leaf....or how they prevent it from being bitter....if you go for the aprouch that your inquiring about their products they should be pretty willing to help?That's where I would start. ...
I think they would more likely reduce bitterness by the process & stuff they put on it...i don't think they would buy tobacco harvested at different maturity. .wouldn't they just buy it like everyone else at the same tobacco auctions..I wouldn't know though
..They play with smoking tobacco so much to smooth it out and make it taste the same as all the other batches. ..so I would think they would manipulate chewing tobaccos even more..changing p.h etc.
 

Matty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
698
Points
28
Location
Sherbrooke, Quebec
One of the thoughts I have is that the bitterness is coming from the nicotine in an un oxidized state because nicotine is supposedly quite bitter. If it where oxidized to continine or some other such form maybe it wouldn't be bitter?
 

Jitterbugdude

Moderator
Founding Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
4,266
Points
113
Location
Northeast Maryland
Bitterness can come from several things. Too much fertilizer as well as the particular strain of tobacco. Virginia Brightleaf (air cured) for example tastes very good chewed with minimal kilning. VA312 on the other hand does not taste good. It needs some sauces to help with the flavor. What kind of tobacco are you chewing?
 

Matty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
698
Points
28
Location
Sherbrooke, Quebec
I've tried bigbonners burley and flue cured, WLT's tn90, ky171, brightleaf, lemon yellow, virginia red and my own air cured virginias and burleys. All where unpalatabley bitter. I've tried a few basic "sauce" recipes using molasses, maple syrup, brown sugar, the addition of baking soda, salt, coffee, pepsi, whisky, rum, brandy, honey.... I can't seem to get away from the bitterness :(
I'd like to make my own chew, I can only get original red man here and it's about 22$ for 40 grams.
 

jekylnz

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 19, 2013
Messages
1,357
Points
48
Location
Auckland, New Zealand, New Zealand
Perhaps they are just too high in nicotine? ? Maybe try washing some out??

I had some platted V.G leaves I had hanging for a year or so..I was a bit concerned about all the crap that had icumulated on them over that I time + plus they were real dry..so I washed them off..long story short they didnt turn out to bad..I cased in a thick mixture of sugar invert.maple s.b vanilla. England toffee essence. A little anise ess.
 

workhorse_01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
1,959
Points
0
Location
Waycross,Ga.
I'm not sure about the Nic. being the bitter taste. I used 1yr old One Sucker for snuff and chew and it turned out quite well. are you cooking it in distilled water? If so don't try the tea!!! What a dizzy rush that was. My wife thought I was on some illicit drug. I cased it with blueberry pancake syrup.
 

Jitterbugdude

Moderator
Founding Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
4,266
Points
113
Location
Northeast Maryland
Try using Yellow Orinoco for your chew. It has a nice taste. I've used about a dozen different tobaccos for making chew and the only ones I detest are Dark Air Cured varieties, Turkish and Havana 142. Turkish isn't really bad as a chew it's just that it has an odd taste. Maryland 609 makes a nice mild chew but the leaf is very thin and soft so you don't get much chewing action out of it before it dissolves. As for the sauce you use, it has to be the consistency of water in order for it to be absorbed into the leaf. Maybe your sauce is too thick? If so, try heating it on the stove, add your leaf and stir.
 

workhorse_01

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2012
Messages
1,959
Points
0
Location
Waycross,Ga.
That's what I did and it turned out great. I have a new Tenn. Dark I'm going to try as soon as it finishes curing and kiln's a bit. It has huge thick leaves. Ever try YTB for chew?
Try using Yellow Orinoco for your chew. It has a nice taste. I've used about a dozen different tobaccos for making chew and the only ones I detest are Dark Air Cured varieties, Turkish and Havana 142. Turkish isn't really bad as a chew it's just that it has an odd taste. Maryland 609 makes a nice mild chew but the leaf is very thin and soft so you don't get much chewing action out of it before it dissolves. As for the sauce you use, it has to be the consistency of water in order for it to be absorbed into the leaf. Maybe your sauce is too thick? If so, try heating it on the stove, add your leaf and stir.
 

Matty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
698
Points
28
Location
Sherbrooke, Quebec
Hmmm... I haven't tried cooking the chew any longer than 5-10mins, just long enough to absorb the sauce. The sauces I've tried where fairly liquid, close to water. Workhorse, was it you who posted something about commercial chew manufacture? I remember reading something about it on here somewhere.
 

Matty

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2012
Messages
698
Points
28
Location
Sherbrooke, Quebec
Nevermind, I found it. Bigbonner posted it in a post named chew. Talks mostly about fermentation but I didn't see anything about why.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top