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Bt spray....how much?

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DGBAMA

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I give up! I wanted to control hornworms by hand if possible but this has gotten out of control. I have BT......have mixing instructions........but how much needs to be sprayed to be effective? light mist? Saturate every leaf? I just picked 6 babies from one plant. Time to deal death a different way.
 

Fisherman

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saturate what you can but pay attention to the application days. Some says like 3 applications in 2 weeks is all....... Depends on your chosen product I think. But spray all you can cover in each application I would think .
 

DonH

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saturate what you can but pay attention to the application days. Some says like 3 applications in 2 weeks is all....... Depends on your chosen product I think. But spray all you can cover in each application I would think .
Yeah, keeping up the schedule is the most important thing. We were discussing it on some other thread and since the worms eat through the leaf you don't have to worry about spraying the undersides of the leaves. That makes it a lot easier. Since you have a lot of hornworms, I'd get the tops of the leaves pretty wet.
 

workhorse_01

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I keep the grass away from the plants to stop the grasshoppers. When the grass gets out of control I get a loot of damage from them. I spray BT once a week unless it rains within 15min of application, if it does I re apply the next day. Sounds like you had a big hatch. I've only seen three all year, but bud worms about 30. I quit spraying about 10 days before harvest and hand pick what I find. I just don't want to eat fresh BT. And I totally soak my leaves on the tops.
 

Knucklehead

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I soak mine with BT. For grasshoppers and squash bugs I've been using garden safe Ortho Bug B Gone granules around the perimeter of the patch. I'm really researching Spinosad right now and will probably switch over next year. It kills the same way as BT plus by contact and lasts longer between applications. It's considered organic. It will kill bees while it's wet, but is perfectly safe after it's dry. (that really doesn't take long) It's safe to humans. Here's some info:

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG...77591/**http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinosad

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG...**http://www.livingwithbugs.com/spinosad.html

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG....hort.uconn.edu/ipm/general/htms/spinosad.htm (this is a good one)(university of Connecticutt)

http://search.yahoo.com/r/_ylt=A0oG...roduct/monterey-garden-insect-spray-spinosad/
 

FALaholic

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Can someone please explain BT?

I must also ask. The thought has been crossing my mind, as to how is it that we can get pests that eat bacca plants, when bacca is a natural pesticide.
 

Chicken

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you dont need to saturate the leaf,

a fine mist will do, as long as that mist covers the whole plant,

your poision will dry on the leaf, and the whole leaf is poision,

i like to do my spraying in the dark, with my headlight on,

i find that in the dark, under the glow of artificial light, you can really see that fine mist and know exactlly where, your poision is going, and how much is hitting the leaf,

but the best advice i can give is this, get on a 4 day spray regiment, rather you think it needs it or not.
 

DGBAMA

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Thanks Chicken. The way these things are growing; completely wetting r each plant would be a LOT of spray.
 

deluxestogie

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...how is it that we can get pests that eat bacca plants, when bacca is a natural pesticide.
All plants have mechanisms of defense against herbivore predators. Some, like tobacco, tomato, potato, produce alkaloids. Since plant vs. herbivore predator is an arms race, some of those predators have acquired mechanisms to defeat the plant defenses.

EDIT NOTE: In searching for the references for the following, I was unable to locate them. I now believe this info is incorrect. Updated information is posted in this thread on 08-23-2013, 10:50 PM.

In tobacco hornworms, their gut contains a bacterium that has the ability to detoxify the alkaloids (nicotine, anabasine, etc.), so the hornworm can eat tobacco leaf without being poisoned. BT is a suspension of a live bacillus that eats those hornworm gut bacteria. So in the presence of BT, hornworms can't detoxify the alkaloids, and the alkaloid poisons kill them. BT is not poison--it's just another organism, and is harmless to creatures that do not harbor bacteria to detoxify alkaloids.

It's possible, with extremely high concentrations of alkaloids, to exceed the ability of hornworms to detoxify it, but high nicotine concentrations are also poisonous to any organisms with a nervous system (people, bees, birds, earthworms, pets, fish).

Bob
 
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johnlee1933

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All plants have mechanisms of defense against herbivore predators. Some, like tobacco, tomato, potato, produce alkaloids. Since plant vs. herbivore predator is an arms race, some of those predators have acquired mechanisms to defeat the plant defenses.

In tobacco hornworms, their gut contains a bacterium that has the ability to detoxify the alkaloids (nicotine, anabasine, etc.), so the hornworm can eat tobacco leaf without being poisoned. BT is a suspension of a live bacillus that eats those hornworm gut bacteria. So in the presence of BT, hornworms can't detoxify the alkaloids, and the alkaloid poisons kill them. BT is not poison--it's just another organism, and is harmless to creatures that do not harbor bacteria to detoxify alkaloids.

It's possible, with extremely high concentrations of alkaloids, to exceed the ability of hornworms to detoxify it, but high nicotine concentrations are also poisonous to any organisms with a nervous system (people, bees, birds, earthworms, pets, fish).

Bob
I didn't understand how it works. Thanks.

John
 

FALaholic

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BT is a suspension of a live bacillus that eats those hornworm gut bacteria. So in the presence of BT, hornworms can't detoxify the alkaloids, and the alkaloid poisons kill them.

Thank you for the explanation. One more thing though. Do the insects need to eat BT in order for it to be effective? From my understanding it seems that bacca and BT go hand in hand to be effective. So I'm assuming that you'll get damage because insects need to consume part of the plant?
 

Knucklehead

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That's right. The critter must consume some leaf for the BT to work. However, it works very quickly and the critter loses it's appetite after eating a little leaf. One advantage Spinosad has over is BT is it works both ways. By contact, and then by working the same way as BT. Spinosad also requires fewer applications. It can be good up to two weeks, rather than 2-4 days like BT.
 

workhorse_01

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But I would much rather put tobacco with BT on it in my lip than tobacco with Spinosad. One of the big advantages I have by growing my own is knowing what chemical I put on it.
That's right. The critter must consume some leaf for the BT to work. However, it works very quickly and the critter loses it's appetite after eating a little leaf. One advantage Spinosad has over is BT is it works both ways. By contact, and then by working the same way as BT. Spinosad also requires fewer applications. It can be good up to two weeks, rather than 2-4 days like BT.
 

Knucklehead

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But I would much rather put tobacco with BT on it in my lip than tobacco with Spinosad. One of the big advantages I have by growing my own is knowing what chemical I put on it.

Did you read the Spinosad links? It's not a poison, it's a biological pesticide like an improved BT. Just as safe.
 

workhorse_01

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Compared to Others on the market this is good. I use snuff and look closely at words like "Acute Oral Toxicity" or "Slightly Toxic". Also long term is "Not listed". Does that mean it's not on the long term problems list or has it not been around long enough to decide? Give California long enough and they will find that a mothers breast milk will cause cancer.
[h=1]How to Manage Pests[/h][h=2]Pesticide Information[/h][h=3]Active ingredient: Spinosad[/h][h=4]Pesticide type: insecticide[/h]Synonyms: spinosyn a; spinosyn b; spinosyns
See example products below.
Potential Hazard[SUP]1[/SUP] to​
Water quality[SUP]2[/SUP]
(aquatic wildlife)
Natural enemies
(beneficials)
Honey bees[SUP]3[/SUP]People and Other Mammals
Acute[SUP]4[/SUP]Long Term[SUP]5[/SUP]

L

LM

M

L
Not listed
[h=4]Acute Toxicity to People and Other Mammals[SUP]4[/SUP][/h]
  • Toxicity rating: Slightly Toxic
[h=4]Long-Term Toxicity to People and Other Mammals[SUP]5[/SUP][/h]
  • On US EPA list: Not listed;
  • On CA Proposition 65 list: Not listed
[h=4]Water Quality Rating[SUP]2[/SUP][/h]
  • Overall runoff risk rating: Low
  • Source: Pesticide Choice: Best Management Practice for Protecting Surface Water Quality in Agriculture. UC ANR Publication 8161.
[h=4]Impact on Natural Enemies[/h]
  • Overall toxicity rating: Low To Moderate
  • Specific impacts: predatory mites (Low), parasitoids (Moderate), general predators (Moderate)
[h=4]Impact on Honey Bees[SUP]3[/SUP][/h]
  • Toxicity category: III - Apply only during late evening, night, or early morning
[h=4]Pests for which it is mentioned in Pest Notes[/h]Biological Control and Natural EnemiesCalifornia OakwormCodling MothEarwigsEye GnatsLace BugsLeafrollers on Ornamental and Fruit TreesOlive Fruit FlyRedhumped CaterpillarRoses in the Garden and Landscape: Insect and Mite Pests and Beneficialscaterpillars, rose slugSpotted Wing DrosophilaThrips

[h=4]Application Tips[/h]Kills through both contact and ingestion action, but is much more effective if insects ingest it. Apply when small larvae are feeding on plant surfaces and cover surfaces completely. A second application may be necessary a few days later if additional larvae hatch out after the first application. Follow label directions for mixing and application for maximum effectiveness and safety.
[h=4]Precautions and Safety Equipment[/h]Minimize your exposure to pesticides. Avoid contact with eyes. Wear eye protection, long pants, a long-sleeved shirt, and a hat that can be washed after each use. Always read label of individual product for additional directions.
Always check the label before purchasing or applying a pesticide product for a specific pest on a specific plant to be sure it can be applied. Follow label directions precisely.
WARNING ON THE USE OF CHEMICALS

[h=4]Example home, garden or landscape use products[SUP]6[/SUP][/h] Bonide Captain Jack's Deadbug Brew Ready to Use • Bug & Slug Killer • Captain Jack's Dead Bug Brew Ready to Spray • Captain Jack's Deadbug Brew Concentrate • Green Light Lawn & Garden Spray with Spinosad 2 • Monterey Garden Insect Spray • Orchard Rose & Flower Insect Spray Ready-to-Use • Sluggo Plus • Trusted Since 1926 Bonide Captain Jack's Deadbug Brew Flower & Vegetable Garden Dust

[h=4]Footnotes[/h]
  • Potential Hazard Rating: VL=Very low, L=Low, LM=Low to Moderate, M=Moderate, LH=Low to High, MH=Moderate to High, H=High, VH=Very High, N=None, NKR=No Known Risk, —=No data
  • Water quality ratings from Pesticide Choice: Best Management Practice (BMP) for Protecting Surface Water Quality in Agriculture, ANR Publication 8161, or the USDA-NRCS WIN-PST database—see Pesticides: Water-Related Toxicology of Active Ingredients.
  • Honey bee ratings are: (Very High) I-Do not apply to blooming plants; (High) II-Apply only during late evening; (Moderate) III-Apply only during late evening, night, or early morning; and (Low) IV-Apply at any time with reasonable safety to bees. For more information, see How to Reduce Bee Poisoning From Pesticides (164 KB, PDF), Pacific Northwest Extension Publication PNW591.
  • Acute oral toxicity ratings for people and other mammals based on LD50 and US EPA Acute Toxicity Ratings system: H = Highly Toxic (LD50 <50), M = Moderately Toxic (LD50: 50-500), L = Slightly Toxic (LD50: 500-5000), VL = Not Acutely Toxic (LD50 >5000)
  • Long term ratings indicate whether the active ingredient is on the California Prop 65 list, which indicates if materials are known to cause cancer or reproductive toxicity, or whether the US EPA has classified the pesticide as "likely to be carcinogenic to humans", "Group B-Probably Human Carcinogen", or "Group C-Possible Human Carcinogen."
  • These products were registered for home and garden use in California in August 2012. Professional use products are not included. If no example products are listed, this active ingredient may be available only for professional use. Individual products are registered for specific uses on specific sites. Read the label to determine if the product is registered for your use. Note that some products may be formulated with additional pesticides.
Did you read the Spinosad links? It's not a poison, it's a biological pesticide like an improved BT. Just as safe.
 
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