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Oh that SWEET Smell

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AmaxB

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Flue Cure Notes and Points
1. [FONT=&quot]For Flue curing (best Results) soil, fertilizer and proper variety of tobacco should be considered.[/FONT]
2. [FONT=&quot]It is thought green color is fixed when temperatures are above 104 degrees. I believe this to be true if humidity is not sufficient thus killing the leaf. If humidity is sufficient the leaf continues to live and yellow to a temperature of 118 to 120 degrees. If thinking of the stages Yellowing and Wilting and using a temperature as high as 118 degrees and yellowing continues. Then the two stages are really one stage “Yellowing”. [/FONT]
3. [FONT=&quot]In considering the thought of #2 above. The curing process is started at 80 to 90 degrees and held at 90 to 100 degrees, until the leaves have changed to yellow and light green. After which it should be slowly increased to 115 degrees and remain until all green is gone or quality leaves begin to brown . When looking at the process this way the normal yellowing time is not 48 hours but instead 60 to 80 hours or even more. At 118 to 120 degrees the leaf is killed and dried. It is important to maintain the appropriate humidity to this point of the curing process.[/FONT]
4. [FONT=&quot]At a point around 105 to 110 degrees you should start to notice a sweet smell.[/FONT]
5. [FONT=&quot]Killing the leaf begins at 118 to 120 degrees and once reached should be held for a number of hours thus killing the leaf and fixing color begins. [/FONT]
6. [FONT=&quot]Drying the leaf - temperature is slowly increased to 130 – 140 degrees and humidity decreased slowly. When temperature is reached it should be held until the leaves are dried. While holding humidity at such a point as to not over dry the leaves (loss of oils), cause scold, or sponging . [/FONT]
7. [FONT=&quot]If the leaf is killed by bruising, rapid drying, or to high heating there is no means for removing the starch, and tobacco is harsh,, lifeless, and straw like.[/FONT]
8. [FONT=&quot]Along with changes in composition the green color of the leaf is replaced by Yellow. If there is bruising, or rapid drying out, the leaf is killed outright, green can become set, and cannot be removed.[/FONT]
9. [FONT=&quot]But however if the leaf is kept alive 2 or three days under the proper curing conditions, the green can be removed if the tobacco is subjected to sweating / fermentation.[/FONT]
10. [FONT=&quot]After Yellowing (the 1[SUP]st[/SUP] stage of curing) the 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] stage is begun and color changes can come about. When the leaf has been killed starches are no longer consumed, or insoluble nitrogen compounds further altered. An important change in the second stage that can occur is color, from Yellow to Red or Brown. This color change cannot happen until the cells of the leaf are dead. It is caused by oxidation and two conditions are needed for it to occur, air and sufficient moisture. Excessive moisture in stage two can cause things to go too far resulting in red or brown tobacco – Dark Tobacco.[/FONT]
11. [FONT=&quot]When curing leaves will lose about 75% of their green weight.[/FONT]
12. [FONT=&quot]Pole Sweat occurs at temperatures of 60 to 100 degrees and moisture of 90% or more and the tobacco cells have been killed. When leaves have gone yellow and light green drop humidity to less than 90% to avoid Pole Sweat.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]What is the appropriate humidity? It can be anywhere between 90 and 115 degrees on the wet bulb.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]A rough guide - Yellowing 90 to 100 degrees, Killing & Drying the leaf 100 to 108 degrees, and Drying the Stem 108 to 110 degrees on the Wet Bulb.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Curing Tobacco is one of those things that must be practiced after gaining a general understanding of what must be done has been obtained. It is my wish the words I have put to paper are of assistance to those who have struggled to grow their own tobacco and have a desire to Flue Cure it. [/FONT]
 

squeezyjohn

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It sometimes feels like we have our own resident Thomas Edison with your scientific approach and great use of the English language here on this forum, AmaxB! Thanks for all of it!
 

AmaxB

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jekylnz

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That's pretty cheap aye..do you know what they are initial designed for??
Also how much power is used over the 6-7 days in kWh.
I was just thinking economically with gas etc.
 

AmaxB

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A little up date reference temperature (taken from a recent N. Carolina guide I just got around to reading)

Leaf Cells die at 113F and higher producing Browning and Scalding a result of to high of a Wet Bulb temperature and to slow drying rate.
After Yellowing the Wet Bulb should never exceed 105F until the leaf lamina is dry.
After lamina is dry advance temperature above 135F and Wet Bulb to 110F

From a different publication

Flue Curing is comprised of three stages
Yellowing of the leaves
Drying of the leaves
Drying of the Mid-Rib


Yellowing - (About 48 hours) Temperature is kept between 30C / 86F , 35C / 95F and 40C / 104F with
Relative Humidity between 80 and 95% until leaves have turned Yellow.

Drying of the leaves - Temperature is slowly increased to 50C / 122F or 60C / 140F
Relative Humidity is lowered allowing more rapid release of moisture from the leaves drying them.
36 to 48 Hours - Relative Humidity between 60 to 40%

Drying of the stems - In general 36 to 48 Hours temperature is increased to 74C and Relative Humidity is lowered to permit rapid drying of the Mid-Rib 40 to 19%

A visual of the leaves having full development of yellow color marks the end of the yellowing stage.
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
 

leverhead

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........
Also how much power is used over the 6-7 days in kWh.
I was just thinking economically with gas etc.

My refrigerator is 78 cubic feet (2.2 cubic meters) and I had about 120 lbs (55kg) of green leaf in it. A pretty close estimate of my power consumption would be 175 kWh/load, about $25 USD per load. Better Insulation might reduce that down to 150 kWh/load. If you use gas for heat, be sure to use a heat exchanger! You don't want combustion gasses in with the leaf and it will reduce the fire risk.

Thanks that's pretty straight forward. .do you know what's the max heat increase s you can get away with .....5 degree per hour? ??

That might be a little high! To get that kind of temperature rise, the heated air coming into the box would have to be quite a bit hotter than the temperature of the rest of the box. Early on in the cure, that would lead to overly dry conditions for the parts of the leaves that see the incoming air first. Later in the the cure, those same parts might get scorched.
 

AmaxB

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I agree with leverhead I would not push 5 degrees an hour unless my leaves had dried, and then it could be to much to fast. I would stay with 3 degrees max stem dry and all other phase / stages (yellowing - lamina drying) 2 degrees max. May take a little longer but is safe.

I cannot stress more the need to control humidity in the first two stages.
To start yellowing a blast of heat (no more than 110 degrees) is ok for 10 to 20 minutes to kick start interior temps. After a rest period a second blast is ok, after each blast return to 90 / 92 degrees. The first 24 to 48 hours a very high humidity is ok (above 95%) as you get into 48 hours leaves may start to become wet and humidity needs to drop to 90 / 95%. After 48 hours yellowing continues do not go above 110 degrees and do not go below 83% humidity until leaves have yellowed, you must watch them if they become wet drop humidity. You can open your door briefly to check them but not to often. Drying the lamina increase temperature slowly and decrease humidity more slowly, use a thermometer or multimeter with K type thermal couple as a wet bulb and keep wet bulb between 98 and 105 degrees as the chamber temperature climbs the wet bulb will to. So let it but when you reach 105 degrees start venting humidity.
If you get this right you will get nice bright leaf if not you will get red and brown.
 

Fisherman

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[FONT=&amp]Quote:
Curing Tobacco is one of those things that must be practiced after gaining a general understanding of what must be done has been obtained. It is my wish the words I have put to paper are of assistance to those who have struggled to grow their own tobacco and have a desire to Flue Cure it. [/FONT]
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Two small suggestions tho:

1] Show us dummys some pictures of terms like "red and orange", "Spotting" "Barn scald" etc
2] Put a final paper out and sell it as a modern guide to curing! A final consolidation so to speak.

I for one would buy it as whenever I have to progress my cure , I finds myself having to re-read a load of posts :)
 

deluxestogie

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I'm a little uncomfortable with the "heat blast" approach during yellowing. It's true, that most leaf tissue (in most plants) is killed outright between 113 and 119.5ºF. But above 104ºF, many of the metabolic processes are suppressed. [This is an ongoing area of academic research, still with many unanswered questions about mechanisms and effects.] Prolonged exposure above 104ºF (not what you are suggesting), will eventually kill the leaf. A brief exposure to supra-optimal temperature, followed by temps below 104ºF, will allow most, if not all, metabolic processes to eventually return to normal.

Since leaf yellowing (the active process of leaf senescence) requires active metabolic processes, yellowing temps above 104ºF enter a zone of uncertainty--what are we gaining and what are we sacrificing. I would encourage an experienced flue-curer to experiment with unorthodox regimens, as you have done, since directly applicable studies are scarce, and better methods may be waiting to be discovered.

For the novice flue-curer, on the other hand, I would recommend sticking to the charts, for example...:

AmaxB said:
Yellowing - (About 48 hours) Temperature is kept between 30C / 86F , 35C / 95F and 40C / 104F with
Relative Humidity between 80 and 95% until leaves have turned Yellow.

Drying of the leaves - Temperature is slowly increased to 50C / 122F or 60C / 140F
Relative Humidity is lowered allowing more rapid release of moisture from the leaves drying them.
36 to 48 Hours - Relative Humidity between 60 to 40%

Drying of the stems - In general 36 to 48 Hours temperature is increased to 74C [/ 165ºF] and Relative Humidity is lowered to permit rapid drying of the Mid-Rib 40 to 19%
...until enough experience is acquired with your specific chamber to understand the impact of deviations from the standard temp and humidity regimens.

Commercial flue-curing occupies a position of high financial risk, so most of those folks follow the traditional methods. Home flue-curing, by contrast, incurs a much lower risk for experimentation.

As with every field of skilled endeavor, a novice should learn the rules well, before venturing into breaking them.

Bob
 

leverhead

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[FONT=&]....
Two small suggestions tho:

1] Show us dummys some pictures of terms like "red and orange", "Spotting" "Barn scald" etc
2] Put a final paper out and sell it as a modern guide to curing! A final consolidation so to speak.

I for one would buy it as whenever I have to progress my cure , I finds myself having to re-read a load of posts :)

I can help you with the "red and orange", my camera won't quite get the colors right though. This picture is of a Sun-cured Southern Beauty leaf, the camera puts too much green in the picture. The colors are really much brighter.

Southern Beauty Tasova.jpg
 

AmaxB

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I agree with ya BoB
A person should not blast their 1st batch or even the 4th you must understand what is going on, not just going through motions because you have read something some where. If you were to do this and not know if your thermometer, PID, Ranco, or other are on their mark you could damage parts of leaves or even the whole load. Not to mention having little or no understanding of what you need to do or are trying to do. The blasting has done no harm to my leaf, but I do not leave I stay there and watch things. Also my chamber is full wall to wall literally, I must tie the tobacco back to close my door. I do it to bring my chamber temp up faster and the mass of tobacco as well.
But I know what I am trying to do, my equipment, and chamber. Do you?
Thanks Bob...
 

chillardbee

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I seem to remember reading somewhere about towards the end of the drying 'leaf killing' that the temps are brought over 160f for primed leaf and too 180f for stalk harvested plants to kill and dry rib or stalk, respectably. But not only does the higher temps at this stage do this but it also kills the enzymes that will turn the leaf brown over time when the leaf has reach a higher moisture content. This makes sense to me, enzymes in leaves can convert the sugars in the leaf if they are still present once the leaf has gotten to the right moisture content. At certian temps, enzymes can be destroyed just like they are in pasturized honey.Thoughts?
 

Chicken

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It sometimes feels like we have our own resident Thomas Edison with your scientific approach and great use of the English language here on this forum, AmaxB! Thanks for all of it!

i agree,,,,

AMAX is like myself,,,,,,, when i sit down with my thought's.

and was thinking what i was going to do,,,as far as bulding my kiln would consist of,

..................................................

we all have our '' own ''' purposes, for the kiln, and a certain desired outcome,

one that kilns for cigar use, really has to keep a close eye on what is going on, to get the leaf to '' perfection''

i myself kiln for cigg's. and really dont get too picky with the way my leaf kiln's because i got plenty of time, and the weather in florida, is allmost excellent for kilning my crop. when it's started early.

the last stages of my leaf, is air cured, for 3 month's,,, after ive kilned it to perfection first,,

and i shred it as needed, the longer it hangs, the better it get's.

good luck, and keep us updated, on your progres,s,,, the good and the bad, and the changes you made,

it may help someone down the road who is just learning,
 

AmaxB

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Chicken made the last post in this thread just before 2014
It's been awhile how are ya Chicken?

Thought I'd shear to help out my fellow smokers (there are many methods - this one works for me)

As far as Kiln goes I have tried most every thing that can be found on line in the way of method. I know Mr. Jitterbug uses a process very much the same as what I am doing. We just had the same idea but did not copy each other.
I think a person would be hard pressed to find a way that is easier while keeping control of what is going on. I wanted to force age my tobacco and get the best finish I could, but holding humidity in the air was a problem and keeping a tight percentage of humidity was a bigger problem. Than came trying to keep the moister of the tobacco uniform across the leaves - next to impossible. Unless your hanging them and you would still have some trouble.

As far as the Kiln goes any box with lid or door that is well insulated and won't pollute the air inside with unwanted or even toxic gases will work just fine.

Heat source can be anything that is safe, does not get extremely hot but will get up to about 200F, and can be controlled. I use a small griddle (it has legs). It is set on a piece of cement board so I don't need to worry about the floor getting to hot. The griddle has built in heat control but it can be not so good for controlling heat in the kiln, so I just run it set on high. My griddle is plugged into an outlet I mounted on the inside wall of the kiln and controlled by the power to the outlet being turned on and off.

Heat control can be any thing that will operate as a thermostat that has the ability to switch power on and off and has a plus minus of not more than say 4F of a set temperature. You want good control but it need not be supper great.
I also use a few fans to circulate the air this helps keep the interior temperature uniform so I don't have any real hot spots.
(I use a PID = well really I use two, one el-chepo just to see what my temperature is at the ceiling and the other a better one to control power to my griddle)

To solve the moisture problem I use a plastic tube like the one below in the photo. To fill it I layer the tobacco and mist it with spring water between the layers.

If you are thinking of Kiln for your leaf tobacco, think of what the greatest amount of tobacco might be that you will ever kiln and make or get a kiln big enough for that amount.
.
Plastic tub with lid.JPG..... I have found these tubs at Walley Mart and Lowe's they do come in different sizes, note the lid has a gasket. If and when you use plastic be sure it will not leach chemicals to the tobacco.

If you do this be sure not to get your tobacco to wet or it will surely mold, if to dry it will not ferment as wanted.
 

Bex

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Sorry for bumping up an older thread - another forum that I'm on hates when you do this, and always demands 'start your own post!' But I have questions, some of which are touched upon here....
I am 24 hours into my first trial run of flue curing - and am wondering what I am supposed to be seeing/smelling, etc. at this time period. I am doing the 'crockpot' method in an old freezer, and following deluxestogies cozy can info. But I didn't have a lot of leaves that were mature enough for the trial run, so my test run only encompasses about 14 leaves. Which leads me to my question: moisture. I have checked my leaves this morning - they are warm, soft, supple and a light green. My chamber is at a steady 35C (95F) - the temp is taken just above the crockpot, so presumably it is the hottest temp in the chamber. The leaf tips are about an inch above the temp probe. But I am assuming that the more leaves you do this with, the more moisture/humidity you will have in the chamber. Presently, there is no water in the crockpot. And I am not working with a wet bulb thermometer. Is there any info about how the number of leaves affect the humidity level in the chamber? After 24 hours, what condition should the leaves be in? I don't believe that, after 24 hours, there is yellowing yet in any of my leaves, although they have become a much lighter shade of green. Thanks for any guidance you can provide!! :)
 

Bex

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Add a half cup of water to the Crockpot. It should be gone by the time you go into wilt.

Bob

I just went up to check, and hopefully got up there in time as I appear to be on the brink of 'disaster'. The leaves were starting to dry - I dumped a cup of water into the crockpot, and hopefully I did this in time!! I think that there is a direct correlation with the number of leaves, size of container, etc. to the moisture. While most of the leaves were still fairly supple, a couple of them had started drying out. The water will help, and hopefully I'm early enough in the 'process' where, ah, well, no damage was done!! Thanks for your response, by the way. You're my hero.....;)
 

Bex

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It may be somewhat interesting as to the position of the leaves that have dried more than the others. Again, there is only 14 leaves in the container, so presumably not enough moisture coming from them to keep the interior of the freezer as humid as it should be. (I guess this is where an RH instrument is necessary - so, next on my shopping list...) The door of the freezer is a bit off kilter - there is a 1/4 inch 'vent' gap around 3/4 of the door, but on one side, the door is ajar closer to one inch, for a length of about 2 inches or so. And it is just at that particular part of the opening that the leaves have started to dry. Anyway, not giving up, of course...and off to ebay to find a hygrometer with a probe......
 
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