Daniels 2012 grow log

[Chicken]

ive actually spun the idea, of '' picking up the shredded wood from a right-of-way clearing'' to add to the garden,,,
sure it will take years to properly decompose,,, but the future benifits would be awesome,

good luck daniel.

 

[Daniel]

My soil analysis came back. It is nothing like the ones posted here so i may be sending another sample off to the online source. First I need to determine if ti is worth it. The Ph is 8.05 and for simplicity sake I will just say it cannot be changed.
What can I expect the results of growing in soil this high to be?
There may be some micro nutrient issues if acidic material is added to the soil. This may cause deficiencies in Iron, Manganese, boron, copper and zinc.
Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. what I learn from them will determine if I move forward or not.
thanks.

 

[dkh2]

My ph was 6.4 last year so I added Sulfur at the end of the season last year and it went to 5.6 this year.
I've read that 5.8 is perfect.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/aa260

 

[BigBonner]

Daniel

If the soil needs lime then its best to add it . Here I can purchas , what we call hot lime in pelleted form . It works only one season . If the soil ph is wrong , it will cause the plants to not use the fertilizers that you may have applied . Adding nitrogen will not work .Using excess nitrogen will not correct poor plant growth with the wrong PH . Lime doesn't work as soon as you apply it . It takes several months to work , unless you use the hot lime . Best to lime in the fall .

One thing that makes me think about soil PH is that I planted several different varietys in a 4 acre field along with my burley . And that other varietys seem to like my soil better than my burley did .
I do know that Flue cured , Burley , Dark air and Ct Broad Leaf require different types and amounts of fertilizers .
Example , Ct Broad Leaf takes more than twice as much amonia nitrate than my burley does .


Pay close attention to the PH with the PH numbers .6.4 you need 1 ton of lime and 5.2 you need 5 tons of lime . Your PH is 8.05 so you will need no lime , only fertilizers . My soil test PH for one says 7.10 and another one says 6.8 . I need no lime so the tobacco should take up fertilizers like they should .

Scroll down to Table 2 on this link http://www.ca.uky.edu/agc/pubs/agr/agr49/agr49.htm

My soil analysis came back. It is nothing like the ones posted here so i may be sending another sample off to the online source. First I need to determine if ti is worth it. The Ph is 8.05 and for simplicity sake I will just say it cannot be changed.
What can I expect the results of growing in soil this high to be?
There may be some micro nutrient issues if acidic material is added to the soil. This may cause deficiencies in Iron, Manganese, boron, copper and zinc.
Any comments or suggestions are appreciated. what I learn from them will determine if I move forward or not.
thanks.

 

[BigBonner]

dkh2

Im sorry but you need lime 3 to 5 ton of it per acre if your buffer PH is 7.0.There should be two PH readings on your soil test one is soil PH and the other is buffer PH .

My ph was 6.4 last year so I added Sulfur at the end of the season last year and it went to 5.6 this year.
I've read that 5.8 is perfect.

http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/aa260

 

[dkh2]

All I added last year 2011 was Sulfur, per the soil report recommendation it said 0.0 lime 15 pounds Sulfur and 70 pounds nitrogen
this year it says to add 1.5 tons of lime per acre, 80 pounds of Potash as a Maintenance Recommendation
and 70 pounds of Nitrogen

2012 report was
Soil pH 5.6 Buffer pH 7.30

2011 PH report was
Soil pH 6.4 Buffer pH 7.30

Both years soil tests are posted here somewhere

 

[dkh2]

Here they are.
I think this is working right

 

[Daniel]

BB, So are you saying that to much lime is not a problem? My Analysis is saying this in regard to the high Ph and lime.
First it tests positive for Free Lime. It then explains the effects of free lime with this quote.

The problem with free lime in soils is it almost always occurs in alkaline soils. The "free lime" causes the alkaline soil. The presence of free lime buffers the soil, making it just about impossible to decrease the pH or make the soil more acidic. Any acid contacting the soil, such as minute traces of acid in rainwater, is intercepted by the calcium carbonate and neutralized.
IT does say that adding organic material may help lower the pH a litlte bit. It also says that many plants will grow in a pH of up to 8 but not all will thrive. I can live with that. I am concerned that tobacco will not produce nicotine.

Even more important on the issue of acid begin added to this soil is this.

a soil with free lime generally has more than enough calcium available for plants, since formation of calcium ions is one of the products produced when an acid and calcium carbonate react. The combination of excess calcium and alkaline soil can cause other nutrients to be unavailable to plants. One of the most common problems in this situation is iron deficiency. Adding iron to the soil can temporarily help. In addition manganese, boron, copper and zinc are not readily available to plants in soils with high pH.

SO, is there anything anyone knows that I can do to add these trace minerals to the soil. adding iron for example. the soil will convert the iron to an unusable form in a short time. I know nothing about iron. how early it needs to be added etc.
Is there any way I can be giving these trace minerals to the pants here in my starter trays before they are ever set out?

I am not looking for perfect plants. I am looking for plants that will grow well enough. I grew in 5 gallon buckets, I am hoping to at least match or maybe exceed that production at the very least.

in short if I change the pH of this soil I will then rob the plants of micro nutrients. Keep in mind I live on the front porch of Death Valley USA. this is not a friendly place. So anyone know what I can add to give plants a shot of micro nutrients just to get the current crop to grow? I know very little about all of those. can they be added like fertilizer? or are they like lime and need time to set in the soil?

If this high free lime content is not the problem I was thinking it was and the tobacco will still grow then I am going to move forward. I know corn will not grow for squat in this soil. Before I could not tell you why. It sounds to me like it is simply starved even though nutrients are in the soil it can't get them. do you think weekly or bi weekly feeding of a liquid fertilizer might give the plants enough of the nutrients they need?
I've already had one person suggest raised beds. I have already hashed that sort of thinking around on this thread. All those yards of sand and compost are not sounding so weird now. In fact I am back to thinking about yards of plain old top soil and just accepting that is what it takes to grow stuff around here. Now I just know more of the reasons why. It also explains why everything I have tried to grow here acts like it is starved.

 

[Daniel]

Well I just started a search on this issue. and found this. Wish I had the day off to really search more.
Plants that don’t like growing in soils that contain lime are called ericaceous plants.

As far as I can tell Tobacco does not realty fall into ericaceous catagory which includes some plants like Potato, Strawberry, Raspberry and Grapes.Tomatoes fall in the next highest group for soils of 6.5 to 7.5 pH. The information continues with the followingIf you try growing ericaceous plants in alkaline or limey soils, they start to produce yellow leaves – a condition known as lime-induced chlorosis, don’t grow or flower well and usually, finally die. The main reason for this is that they need plenty of iron and other soil nutrients that become insoluble or ‘locked up’ in the soil at high pH, so the plants can’t absorb them.

one solution it offers is this which I already know and is the most common answer here. just a variation of container growing.

f your soil is alkaline clay, you could try digging a large hole, lining it with plastic sheeting, making some drainage holes in the plastic, and then filling with a lime-free soil. However, this doesn’t always work very well and is a bit of a risk.

The next suggestion is outright container growing.

Finally it says this about fertilizing.

The other thing you need to ensure for fabulous, healthy growth is to feed the plants with a suitable fertilizer. Whereas many plants can be fed with a general-purpose fertilizer, ericaceous plants really do much better if fed with a specific ericaceous plant fertilizer. This can either be a granular feed or a liquid feed – whichever you prefer. These contains all the specific nutrients needed for great green leaves and masses of fabulous flowers.

This last comment may give some credibility to the idea of fertilizing with a liquid fertilizer throughout the growing period. I am just not sure if it was referring to fertilizing plants grown in containers or if it was suggesting this as a way to grow plants in the soil.

Anyway my thinking is heading toward the idea that if the soil locks up the nutrients. woudl it still be possible for us to give them a weekly shot of nutrients and still expect the plants to benefit from them? I would plan to fertilize only up to the point they begin to bud. then I want them to starve out and die anyway.

 

[deluxestogie]

Daniel,
Do you have an agricultural extension service in your region? If so, you may be able to obtain some very specific suggestions on your soil conditions and what to do about it.

You might also try modifying the pH in a small part of your plot using the sulfur compounds recommended for blueberry growing. These require an acidic soil. That would give you some comparison data for future years.

Bob

 

[Daniel]

Bob, This analysis came from my local Ag Extension. Basically their word on the issue is "You don't grow stuff in this soil". You grow in raised beds or containers. This will not be the first time I've done something no one else has done before. If the problem is that the plants can't get food because the soil will not give it up. it seems to me the most likely answer is give it food that the soil doesn't get first. frequent light feedings.

So far the only answer I have seen consistently for this is to add organic material. The most detailed recommendation along this line has been 1 inch of composted manure with a 3 inch layer of green compost (leaves etc.) tilled into the top 8 inches of soil. Doing this yearly for several years would then begin to lower the pH. I know that raising pH is simple. lowering it is another matter all together.

I am probably going to have to make a trip out there this weekend and get some buckets of dirt. either tobacco will grow or it will not. So far the onlly thing that soudns like a shot to me is to just feed it weekly and hope it gets the nutrients before the soil does. I already have some seed started that is about a week old. I can grow it inside the glass doors of my shop. I can then fart around with lowering the pH as well. But like the analysis says. it is nearly impossible to lower teh pH of this soil and even if you do it locks up the nutrients in the soil.

 

[Daniel]

This is a photo I found on a real estate site of homes for sale in this area. I am posting it to give you all an idea of what I mean about this area being a dessert. what you see growing naturally is sagebrush and some cheet grass.



This is exactly what I am going to try and grow tobacco in. The sage has been cleared away. I am not going to till it or kill what grass is growing. I am just going to go stick tobacco in the ground and water it with a grip system.

 

[dkh2]

Yakima Washington is real similar to your area and so is the soil conditions
there is an outfit there that grows tobacco maybe they would be kind enough to
give you some insight. http://www.kingmountaintobacco.com/home.asp
A friend of mine lives close by to them , we used to grow Giant Pumpkins and would compete every year
He had horrible soil conditions high ph numbers ect. but that tobacco company is a going concern I guess.

 

[deluxestogie]

Bob, This analysis came from my local Ag Extension. Basically their word on the issue is "You don't grow stuff in this soil".

It makes you wonder if your Ag Extension Agent is related to the Ag Extension Agent in Florida who has a published article on-line that explains in great detail why it's not possible to grow tobacco in a home garden.

I would still at least do a small test of acidifying the soil. They probably sell elemental sulfur or sulfur + gypsum at your local garden store, since it's used for growing azaleas, rhododendron, blueberrys, etc. Or:

http://www.extremepumpkinstore.com/ecom-prodshow/sulfur.html

http://www.millernurseries.com/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=777

You could compare

• acidified + extra fert
• acidified without extra fert
• non-acidified + extra fert
• non-acidified without extra fert

Then get your Ag Extension guy to publish the results in their newsletter.

Bob

 

[johnlee1933]

Daniel, you might find this URL an interesting read --

http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/lowerpH.html

Did you ever get those sticks I sent?

John

 

[Daniel]

John, Yes I did, thank you. ment to let you know and got distracted. I have way to much going on right now. sorry.

 

[Daniel]

Well I am more tired than a semi. gt it semi, 18 wheels, tired. Well that is what you get for listen to my jokes when I am tired.

made it out to the BBl today and dug up 8 buckets of dirt to grow some test plants in. I don't know if my brain had gone on hiatus last time we where out there or what. But I don't remember the top layer of sandy soft soil being so deep. my kids say it was but to me i remember it only being about 5 to 6 inch layer. But today we where able to dig out a 5 gallon bucket size whole from every location but one and still not run out of that looser soil. That equates to about a 12 to 14 inch deep layer of dirt that the roots can easily penetrate. One small corenr of the plot is an exception. that top layer has been scrapped away to exposed the underlying hard pan. we will build mounds to plant in this corner.

I also spoke to the owners and questioned them on what they have grown in this soil and what the results have been. They actually have growing right now a fairly wide variety of trees including some acidic loving varieties. they have adjusted the pH in some cases with the addition of vinegar to the soil. They also told me that they know of commercial growers in the area that have applied hydrochloric acid to the soil to reduce pH. I obviousl ystill ahve some homework to do in this regard. They also gave me a couple of names to contact in order to obtain large quantities of composted manure in that area. I slao mentioned that the final result may mean them having sevearl dump truck loads of manure and compost delivered to their property. They didn't seem to have a problem with that. They did ask that we move the entire plot about 30 feet further north than we had it. this resulted in use landing the northwest corner in fairly worthless real estate.
at this time I have very mixed thoughts on just what everything is indicating to me. So I have decide to just grow some plants in our buckets and let the tobacco tell me what is and is not an issue. I am simply just to pooped to try and run it down anyway. got a lot of other things to be working on and have tobacco that can do this work for me. Hopefully it will just proove I got myself all in an uproar for nothing. Sure put me a good mood to see all that nice soft loose soil come out of those holes though.

 

[Daniel]

Bob, I think all the Ag extension agents are somehow related to Uncle Sam. As you can understand there is most likely simply a genetic dysfunction in that blood line.
Well I am a bit more at ease after yesterdays trip. Hopefully a lot more at ease in a few weeks if I actually see plants growing in these buckets. At least my discussion with the owners was encouraging. When I mentioned that I am expecting to make as much as a $2500 investment in growing this tobacco they looked at me with a little shock on their faces and then seemed to take my concerns just a little more seriously also. Paul, the man of the house was home for the first time yesterday also. It was the first time I have been able to meet him. Very pleasnt to visit with. He has just returned from New Zealand. He was also far more informative about the property and the history of their gardening.

I used to be a sprinter in track. actually a very good one setting the state record for the hundred yard dash at the age of 12 for my age level. And at the age of 18 I was clocked at near or at Olympic times. Just saying my training and skill was not just fun and games. I was fast and still am even at 50. One thing that was drilled into me through my training is that you do not let up in a race until you are across the line or you have chosen to quit. races are won or lost in 1/1000th of a second. So in that spirit I will give the race my all until that moment in which I choose to drop out, if that moment comes at all.
I have other issues to address than just if the tobacco will grow. I also realize I must be well ahead of the issues this year or I will be overcome by them quickly. I am playing around in a zone that is very near the end of my ability in every way. number of plants that need to be started and growi nidorrs for 4 weeks. I prefer to grow them indorrs for 6 weeks but simply cannot even consider that with my current methods. I may try to stretch it a bit with Larry's trimming advise.
Tending topping and even suckering are far more of a labor issue with a patch this large. I must plan them all with more accuracy than I even needed to be concerned with last year. We are going to be near our tobacco and any work that must be done must be planned and accomplished in the time allowed. Out tobacco filed is one hour away. we cannot simply step out back and do a little tobacco farming each afternoon.
One major issue I know I face but have not yet really addressed is where to hang all this tobacco once we harvest it. I plan to stalk harvest all of it. With that I know that there will still be considerable leaf that will be primed through out the season. Sand lugs etc will be harvested as much as possible. I think we will be able to handle these inside my shop like we did last year. Btu the main crop is not going to fit in there. we have no place out of the sun to keep the tobacco as we cut it. I expect to rent a large moving van in order to transport the cut stalks to Reno. Thsi means teh tobaccoo must be in the van from the time it is cut until we ahve finished harvesting and then be in the truck for the 1 hour minimum drive to town and the time it takes to unload it. My first plan of atack on this issue will be to tiem the harvesting for either very early in the day (preferable). Or later in the day when it has started to cool a bit. Our nights tend to bet very cool through out the year so harvesting early morning sort of gives is air conditioning to work in.

Next is the room required to hang this much tobacco, without a barn. I have a patio in my back yard that measures 20 feet wide and 60 feet long. or 1200 square feet of space. In total I have as many as 1651 plants that will need to be hung in this space at one time. Worst case would mean that every plant is ready to be harvested in one day. I am not expecting this to be the case but must be ready for it if it does happen. For now I am loking for any ideas on how to temporarily cover this patio in order to cure the tobacco over it. Growing tobacco in thees numbers is probably a one time deal for us. in following years we will only grow about one third this much. so this is only temporary. I will have to consider wind but it is not likely that rain will be an issue. we seldom get rain and even when we do it is light. I have only seen a few real rains in the 40 years I have been in Nevada. My fall back plan in the event of rain is a large piece of plastic sheeting draped over the tobacco like a tent. Otherwise my main issue will be providing shade for the tobacco to cure in. keeping humidity up as much as possible. actually making a make shift tent for it to be in could be possible. Lumber and framing may be a part of this solution. I am pretty much open to any ideas as long as it does not include permanent construction. possibly a pvc framed greenhouse type structure. a 1x2 framed set up or something along those lines.

a fair portion of this patio is already covered with an awning. Even ropes that plastic can be draped over may work. Just thinking in type now. Anyway I will be taking on this question next so any suggestions are appreciated. any ideas you have used in the past or are currently using etc.

 

[deluxestogie]

Daniel,

At the age of 63, I've had to lay aside the spontaneity of my having been a competitive gymnast in my teens. No more impromptu handsprings, vaults over fences, and one-arm cartwheels. My new vision derives from the many times I've climbed out of the Grand Canyon. When I would finally reach the bottom of the Red Wall, which is 600 feet of nearly vertical rock, with switchbacks that barely deserve the name, the only successful mantra was, "one step at a time."

You may be able to construct a hoop shed without too much expense, and then remove it without heartburn. There is one at the top of:
http://www.fairtradetobacco.com/showthread.php?176-Temporary-curing-structures-for-home-growers

The PVC pipe can be simply inserted onto sections of rebar pounded into the ground. Guy ropes would stabilize it.

It can be built more permanently with standard chainlink top rail:
http://www.johnnyseeds.com/p-8417-quick-hoops-high-tunnel-bender.aspx

Heavy greenhouse sheeting would allow humidification.

Bob

EDIT:
http://www.growerssupply.com/farm/supplies/cat1a;gs1_high_tunnels_cold_frames.html
http://www.harrisseeds.com/storefront/c-112-high-tunnel.aspx
http://www.suburbanhobbyfarmer.com/hoop-house-kits/

This famework is $569 from Growers Supply

 

[Chicken]

daniel...

after reading your investment in this project,,and your expected outcomes$

.i hope you are also stockpiling your insecticide,,{ mainly hornworm killer}

and with that much baccy plants a wise way to deliver it,? my 2 gallon sprayer was good for 144 plants,,,,,but then id be close to empty,

this year im so ready for them dreaded creatures,,,,,im actually looking forward to them showing up,,,,

after what they did to me last year< i got a score to settle,,,