large leaf orientals?

[SmokeStack]

I have purchased three whole leaf Orientals (Yenidje, Izmir, Bitlis) and the leaves are very small (maybe 3 to 5 inches in length). However, when I grew Izmir-Ozbas and Yenidje, the leaves were much larger (approximately 1 foot in length or even larger).

• I first thought that maybe the whole leaf Orientals that I had purchased were the upper top-most leaves of the plant; but then what do the growers do with the rest of the 95% of the plant?
• Then I thought that it had to do with the difference in climate; that is, growing in the humid southeast Michigan versus the arid and hot middle east.
• Another thought could have been a difference in soil.

Has anyone observed this phenomenon? Am I missing something, like topping off to early or to late? How do I get the leaves smaller and more fragrant (my Yenidje did not have the same characteristic aroma and strength of the Yenidje that I had imported from Greece, [Bitlis and Izmir were purchased from Don, Whole Leaf Tobacco])? I grew my Orientals in full sun in sandy, virgin soil. BTW I had no problems with my other tobaccos (Burleys, Virginias, etc.). Before planting Orientals this year, I want to double-check. Thank you.

 

[Knucklehead]

Let's deal the second question. What are the planting densities of Turkish tobaccos ? (2)

Characterisitcs of Turkish tobaccos show really very different variations according to the region where they grow (and of course according to their breed).

Turkish tobaccos are generally classified by their growing regions so planting densities vary from region to region here's a table for different regions and also for different varieties.

Variety	Space between two rows (cm / inch)	Space between plants in a row (cm / inch)
Aegean (İzmir)	40 / 15.7	5–10 / 2-3.9
Basma, Gümüşhacıköy, Xanthi	40 / 15.7	15 / 5.9
Black Sea (Karadeniz)	40 / 15.7	20 / 7.9
East - Southeast (Doğu-Güneydoğu)	50 / 19.7	20 / 7.9
Virginia - Burley	100 / 34.9	80 / 31.5
Tömbeki (Tombac)	100 / 34.9	80 / 31.5
Hasankeyf (N. rustica)	80 / 31.5	40 / 15.7

Note : Tobacco farmers never use float beds here, they grow the seedlings in high populated beds and plant them directly to soil (with naked root, without any soil). Seedling loss is common so there's not an accurate density. This densities are given according to this method. So you may inspire from this and try to improve your own method.

...

 

[DonH]

I think it has to do with the close spacing they grow tobacco in in Turkey. I just can't get myself to place tobacco plants 10cm apart! But the closer the spacing the smaller the leaves. Also the variety. Even at larger spacing (18 in.) my Xanthi had small leaves. But Bursa, Samsun and Ottoman had larger leaves.

 

[Knucklehead]

Another note: Traditionally, Orientals are not topped. Also use much less to no fertilizer.

 

[bonehead]

i grew bs samsun last year and didn't top some of them because they were attracting hummingbirds almost every afternoon. the leafs were smaller and thinner than the other plants that were toped and they didn't go trying to sucker so much. i probably won't top any of that variety this year. i am going to try growing yenidje for the first time this year with seeds from http://northwoodseeds.com/. i probably won't top all of them to see the difference.

 

[SmokeStack]

As for spacing, I grew them like the rest of my tobacco: 3 feet apart in rows that are 4 feet apart. I thought this was the standard. I didn't think planting close together would make a difference, but it obviously does. According to Knuckleheads table, Izmir is grown 2 - 4 inches apart! And rows about 1.5 feet apart. I will try that this year. I am not sure about

with naked root, without any soil

I start my seeds in 72 cell trays and then transplant the small seedlings into styrofoam cups. They are a couple of inches tall when transplanting to the ground. My success rate is high - I may lose 2 or 3 plants out of a patch of 50. Should I be doing something different with my Orientals?

 

[SmokeStack]

with seeds from http://northwoodseeds.com/

Holy smokes! I never knew this site existed. They have a huge inventory! Thanks for the link bonehead.

 

[Knucklehead]

That's a chart Istanbulin posted in the http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/1799-FAQ-about-Turkish-tobaccos thread. I don't know why his name didn't copy. Last year I planted with traditional Turkish and American spacing to compare the difference. It made an incredible difference with plant and leaf size. Both spacings produced plants with the recognizable Oriental flavor and aroma, just more of it with the traditionally spaced plants. There was a noticeable difference. It was like the traditionally spaced leaves had a concentrated flavor and aroma. The wider spaced plants had the same flavor and aroma, but more "watered down". That's the best way I can explain it.

 

[Knucklehead]

Holy smokes! I never knew this site existed. They have a huge inventory! Thanks for the link bonehead.

That's Skychaser's new retail site. Killer, huh?

 

[bonehead]

Holy smokes! I never knew this site existed. They have a huge inventory! Thanks for the link bonehead.

i was suprised how many seeds came in the packs of seeds i ordered. i think they will last me for years as long as i store them rite. i might plant a few plants in the woods and see what comes of them in the fall. i did that with elderberries i ordered from washington state after harvesting the suckers and sprouts from fallen berries and they are well established now. i know tobacco won't establish but the stressed plants might make an interesting smoke or nothing. i always end up with a few extra plants after transplanting anyways.

 

[rose]

Impressive site, very impressive. I love this part,

without the use of any pesticides or chemicals. We meet or exceed the standards and methods required for organic seed production


We do not grow any GMO or hybrid crops.

Love of the earth, bees, butterflies and birds is continually gaining new ground. It's heartening to see this. Maybe some day crops grown with harmful pesticides and fertilizers will be a thing of the past and all the pollinators we so depend on can breathe freely once again (us too).


Elderberry starts…you have me thinking. Our elderberry tree died a few years ago. This winter we made elderberry syrup for flu and by god, IT WORKED. Now we take it daily as a preventative. Long history of elderberry being a flu remedy. Of all the good things we were taking nothing seemed to touch it till the elderberry.

 

[DGBAMA]

I will be spacing my orientals closer together this year; last season I gave 14" between plants and my izmir got over 6' tall with 10" or so leaves.

 

[leverhead]

I used traditional spacing for my Turkish last year, the plant spacing was fine, the row spacing was tight. For me, smaller, thinner leaves is the way to go. It is more work, from seedlings to harvest, but very much worth a try.

 

[deluxestogie]

The Samsun types (Samsun, Bafra, Bursa, Trebison, etc.) are grown at a wider spacing, much like the spacing for American tobacco. I have planted Basma types (Xanthi, Izmir, etc.) at both wide spacing and very close spacing (~7 to 9 inches). The difference is as Knucklehead describes for the Basma types--richer fragrance and aroma with closer spacing.

My current practice is to plant Basma types at the close spacing (7 to 9" in row, as well as 7 to 9" BETWEEN rows), and to leave them untopped. Many folks are concerned about access to the plants in close spacing, but I've found that the (traditional Turkish) spacing produces sturdy, small leaves that are easy to reach through without the breakage that you might expect from, say burley. This assumes that the farthest you have to reach from outside the bed is one arm's length.

As for the increased labor that results from many small leaves, with practice, the small leaves can be primed much more quickly than large leaves. Also, because the leaf stems are so thin (hold much less moisture), the small leaves can be strung with much less care (haphazardly and closely spaced), yet are not as prone to mold as are the thicker-stemmed American varieties. So, yes, it does require a bit more labor per pound than burley, but it's only a minimal increase--and well worth it.

Bob

 

[Dean]

I have planted those types this time at 12" spacing off set. I have always had Samsun at conventional American VG and burley spacings but it gets huge without what I would call a good Turkish flavour. I am hopeing like your observations to get a more Turkish type from this grow. I still have BSS in the ground but runts that are now 3' high with 15 " leaves not looking to flower soon. I will assume from your post they will be a thick washed out smoke and not what I am aiming for.

from the last 2 grows it seems I have a perfect bed for Turks and will be only planting them there next season. It's dry, devoid of nutrients and sandy, nothing really likes it even chillis. They will grow but are always stunted and ultra hot from the heat and lack of water.

there is a grower I saw piccies from recently growing some to 10' with 3' spacings, haven't asked how it smoked

 

[bonehead]

i dryed my bs samsun last year on wire sort of shaped like very large christmas ornament hooks with a few dozen leafs all facing the same direction on every hook. i hung them on a clothes line and put them outside or inside quickly depending on the weather. i used a laundry basket and just hung or unhung them quickly.

 

[Dean]

I have some BSS on the clothes line atm trying the sun cure thing, i have air dried up untill now. I also have VG, darkVG and burleys to see how they go. Trying to speed up smoke ability more than anything else. Will know more in a week or so but I am wondering if the process is not half my issues. Grow it like the Turks, cure it like the Turks. I have similar conditions to that area so should be able to get the process down ok.

I just need to start them later to haves some humidity at harvest.

 

[istanbulin]

The Samsun types (Samsun, Bafra, Bursa, Trebison, etc.) are grown at a wider spacing, much like the spacing for American tobacco. ...

I don't think so. Black Sea types are planted only 5 cm wider than Xanthi (Gümüşhacıköy etc.). It's not similar to American way.

 

[Dean]

Is the spacing where I going wrong, do I need them to stunt to get the goods?

if so easy, I can grow them closer. The pot grown from earlier this season grew and tasted a lot more like what I am used to they were grown in dirt, devoid of anything remotely called a fertaliser, I think I hit them once or twice with a liquid feed to keep them going.

 

[deluxestogie]

I don't think so. Black Sea types are planted only 5 cm wider than Xanthi (Gümüşhacıköy etc.). It's not similar to American way.

I yield to istanbulin.

Bob