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Trials and tribulations of my first attempt

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Bex

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It has been suggested that I start a new thread, rather than dumping my detritus all over the forum. A good idea. And hopefully I can get this photo thing correct - I live in Ireland, where it is wet, windy, cool, etc. But I'm determined to grow and process my own tobacco. I have been growing for only about 4 years - and harvested the seeds from my original internet bought ones, under the assumption that the future generations will be more amenable to my windswept climate. Here is where I live (posting this to practice my photo upload ability - so many things to learn!!), in NW Donegal, with a climate kind of like Washington state. However, I am right on the sea, so weather can be quite violent at times.
smallIMG_20140807_162712_724.jpg

Cool, the photo thing seems to have worked. Now for the PIA of resizing all my photos......
The spring here can be wet and wild, until the beginning of June, so I didn't start my seeds until the beginning of May - by the middle of June they were ready to go into my teeny weeny greenhouse. By mid July, I realized I had a problem. The greenhouse housed over 100 little tobacco plants. I needed to do something with them, so ended up buying a cheap polytunnel at the end of July:
smallIMG_20140807_162720_394.jpg

I had to hide this behind a shed, and build a windbreak in the rear of it, so that the 60+mph winds we occasionally get here didn't blow it away. My plants went into it on August 4. Here's some:
smallIMG_20140804_104013_280.jpg
Horribly late in a 'normal season'. But conceivably they can continue to grow here through November.
And now, I needed to get serious about curing them. In the past, when I only had about 20 plants, I was using a seed propagator to yellow them, by rolling the leaves into a towel and heating the propagator. The yellowing portion didn't work too badly - but it was what to do with them after that, that presented the problem. Plus, I really didn't have enough towels, or a big enough propagator, to do this for 100 plants. So, I began to 'study'....and came across deluxestogie's incredible can cozy. Cool, here was my answer.
Strangely, my 30 year old freezer had gone kaput at around this time. So, I also had the perfect container to do this in:
smallIMG_20140828_091544_291.jpg

Sadly, I would not be able to use any of the suggested electronic components in Bob's thread. Now came the effort of finding 240v components with probes on them that I could drop into the freezer - I didn't want to start drilling through the side of it, etc. I found a thermostat, something like what would be on the oven, that went from 30C-100C (and let me tell you, doing the conversions from F to C were truly a headache!! Hopefully, you don't mind that I convert them back for this thread). I got a digital thermometer with a probe, as well. I built a crappy (probably temporary) rack for the inside, where I would press the leaves onto 'pins' to hang them, bought a 240V crockpot, and was ready to rock n roll.
smallIMG_20140825_132939_944.jpg
The electrics are on the outside of the freezer:
smallIMG_20140825_132948_039.jpg

The thermostat is a bit of a PIA, as it doesn't really show exact temps like a digital one would - it is marked in 5C increments but is horribly fiddly. Anyway, I was all set - I studied the cozy can schedule, wrote it down, and was ready to give this a try. I had two plants that I had planted outside as an experiment, that were doing fairly well, plus one in my greenhouse that had been flowering for a while.
smallIMG_20140804_102642_898.jpg

I tested the thermostat, crockpot, etc., and it seemed that everything was going to work well. I was ready, confident and about to begin.....
 

Bex

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The saga begins. I didn't have a lot of leaves for this, so I picked 14 of my best for the trial run, and put them in the freezer. I set the thermostat of 34C, let the container warm up a bit, and put my leaves in. Not being quite sure of the exact measurements of a 'strategically placed clothes pin', I vented the freezer with a film canister:
smallIMG_20140825_134144_774.jpg

And merrily headed for disaster. I began the process on Tuesday, turning the chamber on at 8AM, and wrote down everything that went on (just for your info, I started this with my electric meter at 41057...). I put the leaves in at noon.
As I'm sure has been done before me, I spent the next 24 hours running up and down to the shed about every 15 minutes to check the temperature. (The shed is about 80 feet away - I treated myself to a chocolate chip cookie after each trip, as I didn't want to be weakened during the process). For the first 24 hours, all seemed well, aside from the constant regulation of the little thermostat - the leaves were warm, supple, and were very slowly turning a lighter green. I was actually able to peek with only losing perhaps 1 degree on the thermostat. Ah, how easy peasy was this?? My confidence soared. At 8AM on Wednesday, the electric meter shows 41,061. Not too bad (it was only perhaps 1kw a day additional that was being used). At 2:30PM on Wednesday, I noticed that 3 of the leaves, particularly close to the vent, were beginning to dry. Oops. I misted them, and put two cups of water into the crockpot. The leaves at the rear of the freezer (where there was no venting) were still supple and soft. At 4:30PM, there was no change in the drier leaves. I misted them again and then closed the lid completely, to keep the moisture in, removing the film canister. Sadly, I had to go out for the evening, and when I returned at 9:30PM, the crockpot water was almost empty, and a 4th leaf was beginning to dry. I filled the crockpot again, and gave all of the leaves a real thorough misting. I put a tiny shim of wood in the door, at the opposite end of where the leaves were drying, so the drying leaves had no vent near them at all. At midnight, I was alarmed!!! For some reason, the thermostat was not 'doing its job'. The temp on the thermometer was 40C (104F....that horrible threshold!!) I opened the freezer door, put more water in the crockpot, misted the leaves again, and shut the freezer completely. And then, my vigil began. I stood at the freezer until 12:30, maniacally watching the thermometer. It eventually levelled off at 34C. And then I got a bit of a treat - I opened the freezer door just a bit, and was hit with some lovely moisture, as well as a rather nice smell of curing leaves. ??? I finally left at about 1AM, hoping all was stable. And, it turns out it was....this morning at 8AM (I'm not getting much sleep with this...) the temp was 34C, the leaves were limp and moist, and a nice yellow/green. The electric meter was 41,065. And all seems well with the world. This photo doesn't really do the color justice - the leaves have more of a yellow tinge than what they appear in the photo. These leaves are the ones that were closest to the vent, and while the edges of them are probably ruined (although they now feel soft again).smallIMG_20140828_091358_791.jpg
The yellowing seems to be coming on. I am just coming up to the 48 hour mark on my experiment, and will see what the rest of the day brings. It will be interesting to see what they look like at 72 hours. I do think that this is doable (although maybe not for my current guinea pig leaves). But some tweaking is probably necessary.
 

Bex

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I have come to a number of conclusions that I want to get some feedback on. I am thinking that the size of the container, as well as the number of leaves that are in it, are vital insofar as producing the necessary humidity for the first 48-72 hours. I think that some indication of humidity (hygrometer, etc) is pretty essential. My 'chamber' was larger than the can cozy, and I had far less leaves in it, so they were unable to provide the necessary amount of moisture to keep them supple for the first 48 hours or so. I am hoping that the hygrometer will make this more accurate, so that I can tell if water needs to be added to the crockpot. I suppose I can 'study' through the forum again, but does anyone have the percentages of RH that you are looking for during the yellowing, wilting, leaf drying and stem drying phases??
Also, I would like to get some more information on this convection thing - I understand, of course, what it is. In the original process that I used (rolling the leaves in towels and keeping them warm in the propagator) the leaves yellowed nicely - of course, as they were wrapped with each other, they kept themselves fairly moist. Each day you would open the towel, and mist leaves if they needed it. But there was no 'convection' - without convection do the leaves just kind of slowly 'cook'?? Part of what I noticed with toweling is that, when yellow, the leaves would be fairly thin - certainly far thinner than the virginia leaves that I buy.
Which brings me to another question - the virginia leaves I buy are leathery and kind of 'gummy' - presumably they are flue cured, but how do they get to this stage? They do not seem to lose as much 'mass' as I have experienced. Is there a trick to this??
By the way, here is a photo of some of my plants in the tunnel as of today - about 20 days after they were planted. They are now about 2 feet tall, so hopefully I will have enough time with the growing season here so that they will be viable in a couple of months (which gives me a lot of time to study and practice flue curing.....)
smallIMG_20140828_091254_491.jpg

I really want to thank you guys who have been offering assistance to my project thus far. While I will never achieve the expertise that I find on this forum, it would be nice to be able to grow some tobacco and have it smokable!!!
 

Jitterbugdude

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Nice write up Bex. It'll get easier and easier with each batch you do. Next year you'll probably be sitting in your house( as your tobacco is curing) laughing to yourself how you used to run out every hour to check your tobacco. BTW, I take it you are trying to flue cure these?

Randy
 

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Bex,
Good write-up, and lovely photos of your home.
Plants that have a full growing season during the height of summer, and that have plenty of growing room in open soil, will produce thicker, larger leaves.

For RH values, I believe a chart was recently (within the last month or so) was posted within one of the other flue-curing threads--can't remember which one.

My take is that direct measurement of humidity (hygrometer or a wet-bulb setup), for either a kiln or a flue-cure chamber, is helpful during the learning process, but becomes nothing more than "additional data" once you develop a gut-level grasp of the process. If you automate the process, then of course, all the inputs are used.

Bob
 

leverhead

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" I am thinking that the size of the container, as well as the number of leaves that are in it, are vital insofar as producing the necessary humidity for the first 48-72 hours. I think that some indication of humidity (hygrometer, etc) is pretty essential."

You're right, the moisture has to come from somewhere. Measuring the humidity may not be essential, but it would be very useful for for figuring out the effect of lifting the lid for a vent. Weighing the leaves ahead of time would give you an idea of how much water you're removing/evaporating, the leaves are about 80% moisture. Lifting the lid with a 1/4" shim might be closer to what you want for that size load.

Try this graph as a guide, it's not gospel, just a guide. http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/4776-Wet-Bulb-Calculator-without-the-Wet-Bulb?p=84834&viewfull=1#post84834

"Which brings me to another question - the virginia leaves I buy are leathery and kind of 'gummy' - presumably they are flue cured, but how do they get to this stage? They do not seem to lose as much 'mass' as I have experienced. Is there a trick to this??"

The leaves "mature" and then become "ripe", the green becomes paler and yellow in places with ripeness. The leaves get thicker also, not so much at the bottom of the plant, but increasingly so going up the plant. Riper leaves will finish thicker.
 

Bex

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Ah, thanks very much for the input, as well as the graph regarding the relative humidity. I am glad that I did this dry (somewhat) run, in order to see how my container works, the thermostat, etc. My stress level has dropped considerably today (and the leaves are yellowing nicely). And I will continue to use this thread for my questions, rather than bung up everyone else's. So, of course, another question:
I read that you should not go beyond the 120F (48C) level in wilting, until all the leaves have yellowed properly. I have my thermostat set at 34C at the moment (95F). Do I raise the temp to the wilting stage (gradually to 48C) even if the leaves are still a light yellow/green? Once you get up to 48C, does more yellowing still occur, or is the color now fixed??
That relative humidity chart will be really helpful, in that, with varying numbers of leaves in the container, or at varying temps, I can understand whether the crockpot should be dry or wet, whether I am venting too much or too little, etc.
I'm also wondering about this convection business. With my freezer vented very slightly - about 1/4 of an inch in one corner - is this enough for convection. Do some people use fans for this process, and how important is it? Again, with the 'towelling' method, I had no convection and the leaves would yellow fairly nicely.
Hmmm.....I wonder if people in the 1860's were asking these questions.....;)

Jane
 

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Convection occurs because the interior of the container is heated from one location--it's hotter than the rest of the container. So you get convection currents in the contained air, regardless of venting.

In commercial (and some high-capacity home) flue-cure chambers, the leaf is densely packed, and a fan is needed to force the air to pass among all the leaves. Between these two extremes, there is no doubt that a fan can provide a more reliably uniform environment than convection. My Cozy Can has not required a fan.

When my leaf has mostly yellowed (as shown in another thread), I begin to ramp the temperature into wilting, and on to completion, without peeking (!), and without any notion of what's going on inside the chamber. After it has yellowed, it's on its own. It comes out however it comes out.

Perhaps others who use a less fly-by-the-seat-of-my-pants approach may be able to offer more useful information on the post-yellowing phases.

Bob

EDIT: During the last half of the 19th century, the cutting edge of science was applications of the Carnot cycle and methods of heat transfer. The scientists of that day became the refrigerator repairmen of today.
 

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Ah, thanks very much for the input, as well as the graph regarding the relative humidity. I am glad that I did this dry (somewhat) run, in order to see how my container works, the thermostat, etc. My stress level has dropped considerably today (and the leaves are yellowing nicely). And I will continue to use this thread for my questions, rather than bung up everyone else's. So, of course, another question:
I read that you should not go beyond the 120F (48C) level in wilting, until all the leaves have yellowed properly. I have my thermostat set at 34C at the moment (95F). Do I raise the temp to the wilting stage (gradually to 48C) even if the leaves are still a light yellow/green? Once you get up to 48C, does more yellowing still occur, or is the color now fixed??
That relative humidity chart will be really helpful, in that, with varying numbers of leaves in the container, or at varying temps, I can understand whether the crockpot should be dry or wet, whether I am venting too much or too little, etc.
I'm also wondering about this convection business. With my freezer vented very slightly - about 1/4 of an inch in one corner - is this enough for convection. Do some people use fans for this process, and how important is it? Again, with the 'towelling' method, I had no convection and the leaves would yellow fairly nicely.
Hmmm.....I wonder if people in the 1860's were asking these questions.....;)

Jane

You're welcome! If you get too hot too soon, you'll kill the leaves with heat and stop the yellowing, the leaf will go brown. If you read Brown Thumb's and Dgbama's threads about flue-curing, they're having good success this year. There are some good pictures of leaf color at the point they start reducing the RH (venting) to dehydrate the leaf to hold the color, the stems and thicker veins die from heat and turn dark brown to black. Go through their threads, they've done a much better job of documenting the process than I did.

You'll have convection (movement of the air) if you have a difference of temperatures between different spots within your freezer and you don't have any obstructions (leaves packed too tight or tight spots). The movement/stirring of the air helps maintain more uniform conditions within the freezer. Shimming the lid of the freezer open even a small amount will let allot of water vapor out, as the liquid water evaporates it is a much larger volume than the liquid in the leaf, so it just pushes it's way out.

With the toweling method you didn't need convection to maintain uniform conditions, the towel did that. What it couldn't do is allow enough moisture out to hold a yellow color or dry the leaf enough to keep it from molding.
 

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Anyone curious as to how I'm getting on??? Nah.
I look at some of the other threads, and feel a bit like a child, with my 14 leaves and first run....but, I persevere!! I am now into hour 78 of the 'yellowing' stage, which was filled with tensions and stress. No more!! Of the 14 leaves that I originally did my first run with, 7 of them dried out, being too close to the vent in the freezer. They remain green, and have dried again - I have not attempted to 'save' them (if, indeed that was even possible), and are just letting them do whatever they will do. Strangely, at about 30 hours into this or so, one of the leaves had become yellow quite quickly, but with some green 'spots' on. I left it alone, and when I checked it this afternoon, it had turned brown (temp was still at 95F). I pulled it out of the freezer:
smallIMG_20140829_164059_779.jpg

Pretty strange looking, but in the name of science, I shredded it and smoked it, trying to remove the green bits. Now, in the last few years, the stuff that I have processed myself has been pretty harsh and not too tasty. I was quite surprised that there was no harshness with this, although, when I came across a green bit, it wasn't so great.
But, I have saved the 'best' for last. Some of my leaves have yellowed nicely:
smallIMG_20140829_180400_361.jpg
smallIMG_20140829_180353_634.jpg

Not too bad, and I am hoping that, having this first 'run' to work out all my mistakes, etc., this is going to work out ok. I have now moved on to the 'wilting stage, pumping the temp up to 48C (120F or so), for the next 24 hours. Will see what the next 24 hours brings!! :)
 

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By the way, just curious - is there any way to tell from the photo in post #3, what kind of tobacco this is???
 

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Good progress.

The ones that turned brown will still end good for smoking, just not bright colored. Some varieties always cure brown, just in their nature.

As far as your new plants, they are small yet to identify, at least for me. Also greenhouse plants often appear different than outdoor grown plants, so identification may be difficult at all.
 

Bex

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When I checked this morning, the leaves that had been previously 'damaged' by drying too quickly originally (and then re-moistened) had dried out again, with the temp having been hiked up to the 'wilting' stage. The strange thing is that, although they have dried they have not dried out at the same green color as some of my efforts have had in the past. Kind of a brownish green color.
smallIMG_20140830_091110_733.jpg

It would also appear (even from the yellow leaves that are still going through this process - and of 14 original leaves, sadly, I have 4 survivors that seem to be sticking to the 'schedule'), that they have pretty much yellowed AND wilted at the same time, even though I have not bumped the temp to 'wilting' until this morning. I imagine that much of my 'results' has to do with a somewhat large space being used to cure a small handful of leaves, perhaps??
 

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I'm also going to post this chart here, just in case any other 'newb' decides to read this thread when they first start out. Much has been spoken about the wet bulb temperature. There are sites on the internet which show you how to make one of these - all you need is PVC pipes, a thermometer and a wick that apparently runs from a water source in your chamber to the thermometer. It seems somewhat simple to do. But what I have found is even simpler - if you have a hygrometer that measures relative humidity (and I do suggest that, until you get really familiar with this technique, to have one of these. I did not have one during this attempt - on order now - and it was impossible to determine whether I had too much or too little humidity at any given stage). I found this chart on an air conditioning site, which will convert your RH and air temp to the wet bulb temp:
wetbulb2.jpg

Sadly, however, it only goes up to the temps needed in the yellowing stage, but hopefully will help during that stage.
 

Bex

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It appears that there is no end to this studying - I am now studying crockpots, sadly. I set my crockpot for 'wilting' earlier today (8AM) - the thermostat went up to 43/44C (about 110F) and was still at that temp at noon, even though I had set it for about 48C (120F). Hmmm.... I bumped it up to 57C (135F) and came back at 3PM. The temp still showed 44C. I came to the conclusion (maybe) that the crockpot will go no higher than 110F on low - and began to study. Apparently, the difference between high and low on the crockpot is the amount of time it gets to 'simmer'. I found this on the internet:
Typical cook time for Crock-Pot® slow cookers to reach simmer point (209°F):
Low: 7-8 to reach the simmer point
High: 3-4 hours to reach the simmer point

Of course, I hadn't waited the 7-8 hours, although it seemed that the temps weren't going anywhere. My problem will be that, if I actually load the freezer with leaves, I will not be able to reach the crockpot to change the setting from low to high. I have currently changed it to high, and have set the thermostat for 57C. I supposed I am looking for immediate gratification with temp changes, although I understand that the temp changes should be gradual. I imagine it will still take a few hours to reach 57C, but am in the process of checking this now. This experiment encompasses 'knowledge' of so many things: leaves, hanging, venting, crockpots, thermostats, thermometers, humidity, etc. I'm sure that once I get through this trial run, things will be easier!!
 

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I presume your thermostat which controls the crock pot is outside the freezer, so it can be adjusted without opening the lid?

I wired a small nite light between my thermostat and crock, to serve as an on-off indicator, since can't see the light on the crock itself. The dial markings on the water heater thermostat are not very accurate.
 

leverhead

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It appears that there is no end to this studying - I am now studying crockpots, sadly. I set my crockpot for 'wilting' earlier today (8AM) - the thermostat went up to 43/44C (about 110F) and was still at that temp at noon, even though I had set it for about 48C (120F). Hmmm.... I bumped it up to 57C (135F) and came back at 3PM. The temp still showed 44C. I came to the conclusion (maybe) that the crockpot will go no higher than 110F on low - and began to study. Apparently, the difference between high and low on the crockpot is the amount of time it gets to 'simmer'. I found this on the internet:
Typical cook time for Crock-Pot® slow cookers to reach simmer point (209°F):
Low: 7-8 to reach the simmer point
High: 3-4 hours to reach the simmer point

Of course, I hadn't waited the 7-8 hours, although it seemed that the temps weren't going anywhere. My problem will be that, if I actually load the freezer with leaves, I will not be able to reach the crockpot to change the setting from low to high. I have currently changed it to high, and have set the thermostat for 57C. I supposed I am looking for immediate gratification with temp changes, although I understand that the temp changes should be gradual. I imagine it will still take a few hours to reach 57C, but am in the process of checking this now. This experiment encompasses 'knowledge' of so many things: leaves, hanging, venting, crockpots, thermostats, thermometers, humidity, etc. I'm sure that once I get through this trial run, things will be easier!!

I'm just guessing, but your crock pot might be too small. The heat losses through the insulation will get worse as the temperature difference becomes greater (inside/outside of the freezer) through the cure. A bigger load would require more heat (Watts) to raise the temperature also. Vents/leaks also loose heat.
 

Bex

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I presume your thermostat which controls the crock pot is outside the freezer, so it can be adjusted without opening the lid?

I wired a small nite light between my thermostat and crock, to serve as an on-off indicator, since can't see the light on the crock itself. The dial markings on the water heater thermostat are not very accurate.

Yes, the thermostat is outside of the freezer, so that I can adjust it without opening the lid. Of course, I was opening it anyway as this first run was going on - first to see what was happening, then to add water to the crockpot when the moisture dropped, and later to put the crockpot on high. The whole set up is in my shed - I have also wired up a light there so I can see what's going on, and put a chair in front of the freezer, so I can sit there like an idiot.
I don't know if the crockpot is too small to heat the approx 8 cubic feet of the small freezer - I think I am too impatient. I understand that all crockpots will go up to 212F - the difference between high and low is the time it takes them to achieve this. As the temp hikes between wilting, leaf drying, stem drying, etc., are supposed to be gradual, I imagine that the 7-8 hours that the low setting uses might actually be helpful. Of course, I bumped up the temp and came back in 2-3 hours, expecting to see that the temp had raised to what I had set it for. Yep, pretty unrealistic. However, unlike Deluxestogie, I never ran the freezer empty with just the crockpot running, to see what temp it would achieve. I will have to do this after I finish this trial run, just to see if this is possible.

I certainly agree that a stove thermostat is a pretty fiddly thing. I am getting used to the one that I have, though - the problem of course being that the marks are in 10F increments without much space in between them. Of course, the original premise of Deluxestogie's cozy can was that early on, people curing tobacco were doing this with low, medium or high fires, etc. so not too much control there, either. So perhaps I am being a bit to particular, trying to keep the temp exactly, for example, at 94F, when there is really a bit more leeway. However, I will admit having a digital thermostat is really the way to go here. Other than the Ranco controller (unavailable in Europe, by the way) or a PID thingy, it is difficult to find a thermostat with the temp range that is needed for this process.
Having just checked the temp on the freezer, it shows 54C, so it is on its way up to the 57C that I have set it for. Leaf drying time has arrived!!
In the meantime, I'm going to sit here to read Dgbama's kiln build....:)
 
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