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Tobacco Economics

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Bigdog

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I think it is a personal choice, I have spent a fair amount so far this year, but that is on equipment that I can reuse, so its a once of expence. I could have made do with stuf found round the house, but I think of it as a investment. With the expences and all I think I wil still break even with my cigarettes and the cigars is all a bonus. I just have to ad that I don't think South African conditions can be compare to you guys in the USA, my total expences comes down to about $100 sofar, that seems very litle to you guys judging from what I read on the forum, but its a lot of money to me.
 

webmost

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Thanks guys. I am most concerned with the final taste of the product. If the final product can be as good or better than bought stogies for less money, I will be growing. And yes Bob, growing veggies and fruit should be taken into consideration as well. There is no question that my homegrown fruit and veggies blows away anything bought from a store. Good to hear that tobaccy is the same way. I am now on the growing and rolling band wagon.

Cigarette leaf may be one thing. Cigar leaf is quite another.

Once a fellow has invested his sweat in home grown plants, he loses the ability to impartially judge the leaf he grew. That's human nature. It's true that he can grow the same habano seed. But he flat out cannot prepare his leaf the same way that Don's leaf has been prepared. Time is the problem; both the time ahead of us and the time behind us. Ahead, which of us has 14 years left in which to shuffle the hands in a pilon every few days while the habano wrapper cures? I'll be eighty by the time this year's crop reaches that maturity. Behind, which of us has generations of experience to know just how and when to shuffle those hands? Yet Don can sell you Habano 2000, cured 14 years by people with generations experience. Are there short cuts? No doubt. FX Smiths Sons will sell you a cigar for a buck the wrapper of which has been turned oscuro by a secret method devised over five generations. Can you discover that method? Sure. It may take you five generations to find it.

I am reminded of the rich Texan whose trophy wife dragged him to Britain on vacation. He admired the ancient bowling green where the tour guide claimed Drake bowled before sailing to meet the Armada, in that famous anecdote illustrating British phlegm. He spotted a gardener.
"This is some fine looking lawn you got here."
"Thank you sir," replied the gardener.
"Say, how can I get some of this grass back home? They would love a lawn like this at the country club. What we got now is mostly devil grass and tumbleweed."
"Why it's really very simple, sir. First, you plant a good quality fescue. Then you roll it, twice a day, for four hundred years."

Time. Time is your enemy when trying to produce the same quality leaf as Don can sell you. It's not like tomatoes. Tomatoes are best fresh. So, no, that's no analogy.

Not to blink the fact there is a very good reason why the best cigar leaf is grown in the same latitudes, Cuba, Nicaragua, Sumatra, Cameroon on the one side of the line, and Brazil on the other side. And do you have the same soil as the sunny Jalapan hillside which generations of experience has taught the old man whose entire life has been devoted to tobacco is the hillside to plant next.

If you think you're growing cigar leaf anywhere near the caliber you can buy from WLT you are only fooling yourself.

Sure, you can buy cigars made from tobacco as bad as your own. The JR Auction sells them every day. Instead, go score a Torano, AVO, Flor de Oliva, or etc. five buck stick and compare that with your leaf and WLT leaf.

However, having said that, I think you are asking the wrong question. For me, it was:

At first: Can I get a top notch product at a price that fits my budget? I can roll a cigar from WLT leaf to my own specs for about seventy cents. People keep sending me expensive cigars which I would never splurge to buy. The other day, I won a contest, guy shoots me ten cigars ranging in price from eight to sixteen bucks apiece. No way I can burn that kind of coin on a regular basis. So far, I have smoked just one of these. Far prefer my own. Once cigars start getting over five bucks a pop, I find the blenders are trying too hard to be special, and so they wind up cranking out a fair proportion of duds. There are certain smokes which I know I can rely on to suit my taste; such as the Ave Maria, the Torano Coloseum, and such. But how often do I have a buck twenty to blow on a box of those? By controlling the ingredients myself, rolling myself, I find I can produce twenty equally enjoyable smokes for fifteen bucks.

That's where I started, at first. But it didn't end there. Not by a long shot. Once I started rolling, I discovered that the joy of immersing yourself in the process and the aroma, and just the act of admiring the leaf, not to speak of the pleasure I get when, once in a while, by happy accident, I manage to roll an exceptionally pretty cigar... I have to run the finished stick in the Bearswatter for her to admire. You just cannot buy that at any price. Any price at all.

I am sure that those of you not crippled by the black thumb which prevents me from growing leaf must get the same satisfaction from raising your own plants. But. I repeat: If you think you're growing cigar leaf anywhere near the caliber you can buy from WLT you are only fooling yourself. My prettiest cigar is nowhere near the consistently perfect stick which Maria Conchita Rosita Guadalupe Luz de Alvarado y Ordonez rolls four hundred times a day en la tabacalera after 30 years experience rolling ten hours a day since the age of eight. Common sense will tell us that. Put it this way: I don't get the satisfaction of the smoke by letting her smoke her cigar; nor do I get the satisfaction of the roll by letting her roll my cigar.

A number of you sent me your home grown products in the drumstick competition. Nothing I smoked there so far dissuades me from this opinion. Anyone who thinks they may have grown cigar leaf equal to Don's, send me a sample to compare, I'll gladly swap you some Uppowoc Perfectos. I'll be open minded. Watch out: I am apt to express my frank opinion.
 

deluxestogie

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Webmost. Your own skill at growing and rolling cigar leaf seems to encourage you to extrapolate the consequent result to the results of others. I have a large humidor containing a dozen or so varieties of the world's finest industrial cigars (minus those of Cuba). They are prettier than my own, rolled from my home-grown leaf. My own usually (though not always) taste better and burn as well or better. I've smoked cigars (expensive and inexpensive) for over 45 years, including many boxes of Cuban cigars. Simply dismissing the opinions of experienced growers because they have experience is starkly pessimistic. I will say that I wholeheartedly disagree with your take on the matter.

You are mistaken about 14 year old leaf. It is not "cured" for 14 years. It was cured and fermented 14 years ago. It has been in storage since then.

Don's packages of consistently superb wrapper are damn near impossible to duplicate in a home grow, specifically because of the scale of the grow from which to select and grade the leaf. I would guess that, at most, 10% of my wrapper leaves are flawless. Another 40-60% (depending on the year) exhibit minor flaws that do not impact their use as excellent quality wrappers.

I sun-grow all my wrapper varieties, so I do not produce ultra thin wrapper, and the veins are thicker than those of shade-grown wrapper. Does that affect the taste or aroma or burn quality of the final cigar? Not if the proper binder is selected. My maduro and oscuro wrappers have no secret recipe. They are naturally maduro or oscuro. I have no requirement to mass produce a specific quantity of cigars of a specific color. (FX Smiths Sons secret: cook the leaf)

I will readily admit that the quality of my cigar leaf was marginal for my first two or three years of growing it. Today, I am quite satisfied with most of what I grow, and most of the cigars I roll--and not because I have become brain dead or personally invested--it's just good stuff. I smoke "premium" industrial cigars whenever I don't have the time to roll one. So comparison is a frequent exercise. Objectivity is not so hard to come by.

It's easy to pontificate when you have not mastered the art of growing cigar leaf. If you are unable to do it, that's fine. But that does not logically lead to the assertions you have just made.

Bob
 

POGreen

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I'd definatetly say it's worth growing your own tobacco.
And think of all the fun you'll have in the sun when them plants grow like crazy , I find it very gratifying to grow my own tobacco and solving whatever prob that might turn up on the way.
Stop those snails just to mention one problem , or how to secure plants before the wind makes them fall over is just another thing one has to confront.
You'll be a richer person in life if u grow your own instead of buying ready made cigars or whatever.
You will also be self-suficient and can be really proud about it too and that is worth a great deal as far as myself can imagine.
It does take a lot of your time yes it does , but its worth every minute of it.
 

dvick003

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I'd definatetly say it's worth growing your own tobacco.
And think of all the fun you'll have in the sun when them plants grow like crazy , I find it very gratifying to grow my own tobacco and solving whatever prob that might turn up on the way.
Stop those snails just to mention one problem , or how to secure plants before the wind makes them fall over is just another thing one has to confront.
You'll be a richer person in life if u grow your own instead of buying ready made cigars or whatever.
You will also be self-suficient and can be really proud about it too and that is worth a great deal as far as myself can imagine.
It does take a lot of your time yes it does , but its worth every minute of it.

POGreen,

Thanks for the encouragement. My goal in life is to be as self-sufficient as I can. I bet your tobacco is really unique growing in Sweden! Hope your crop is turning out well...

Gavin
 

POGreen

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It's absolutely one of the best things I've done in life , I am very glad I grow now and am not sorry I didn't start earlier.
Better late than never.
Imagine yourself the day when u lit up one of your own cigars made from own tobacco , Christ that feeling could walk right through a mountain !
I reckon maybe more and more ppl will start growing their own over here , being pretty fed up with bad quality and too high prices.
Even heard of ppl smokin their cig over here and the glow/ash would just fall right down on the ground.......
You're most welcome Gavin and I am truly glad if I can encourage u to grow yer own.
 

AmaxB

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Forget Cigars!! What about a good cigarette you just can't buy one today from the common store. No sir you just have to grow or buy, then prepare, and shred the leaf for a decent smoke.
I like to give two or three of mine to someone now and then saying here try this. They lite up and after a puff or two tell me oh that's good where can I get some of these? (brings a smile to my heart every time) I tell em you can't
I grew that...
Growing is work to a point and a joy to see your babies stand tall. Curing and aging is another learning curve but once you understand, it becomes simple and comfortable. Then you have smoke you enjoy with every lite up - unique - all your own - special..
A bonus are the many dollars you save!
 

POGreen

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Same story on snus , can't buy a reallly good can/puck of snus anywhere in the whole country of Sweden.
It's actually been like this for the last 17 years accordingly to myself.
But there is hope , get yourself some good insight on the subject itself , grow your own tobacco and you'll be saved for a lifetime. :cool:
 

DrBob

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cigarettes cost about $8.00 a pack in Wisconsin. a pack a day will cost about $3000.00 per year. I average about 8oz tobacco per plant which will make a little over 10 packs of smokes. Using that math 1 plant is worth about $80.00 and 100 plants would be worth $8000.00.

Been growing a long time and have lots of tobacco on hand. The savings are real..... The ONLY reason I grow my own is to save money.

on the other hand you can buy whole leaf tobacco and still save a ton of dough.
 

Planter

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As deluxestogie pointed out before, growing may include 125 deep knee bends twice a day. Others are paying for the privilege of having a trainer making them do so, while they stare at the wall of a fitness studio.


I´m growing mainly out of horticultural interest, but a pipe full of Bursa for example is an olfactory experience. I would not know where to buy something like that, especially not ORGANIC. There are very good commercial pipe tobaccos available, but none like that, as far I know.


I´m doing this together with someone who has boxes and boxes of different cigars from all over the world at home, and keeps buying, but, guess what, regularly chooses a homegrown for its unique flavour.


Most people don´t know anymore what a tobacco leaf or plant looks like. That´s generally true for food these days.


Like in growing grapes and making wine, there´s a lot of satisfaction to be had. And even if it won´t challenge Chateau Lafite, it may go better with your own potatoes.


From a purely monetary point of view, one should not forget that a lot of goods these days (incl. wine and cigars) can be offered for a few dollars in the "Western world", because labour somewhere else is MUCH cheaper. I have the impression this gap is closing more rapidly than most Westerners would think.


Anyway, not counting labour, this year I had real trackable expenses of perhaps $8 per kg. The commercial pipe tobaccos I like best next to my own cost almost $300 per kg by now (and that´s not just because of taxes).
 

dvick003

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Planter,

That is some great info. I have been brewing my own beer for years now and I save a ton of money from that. I am sure I can do the same thing with tobacco too. And like you said and I am learning, you can grow and smoke tobacco varieties that are unique and cannot be found anywhere else. Thanks for the money figures as well. That really helps out!

Gavin
 

webmost

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Webmost. Your own skill at growing and rolling cigar leaf seems to encourage you to extrapolate the consequent result to the results of others.
...
It's easy to pontificate when you have not mastered the art of growing cigar leaf. If you are unable to do it, that's fine. But that does not logically lead to the assertions you have just made.

Bob

Bob, I'm sorry if you take umbrage to my opinion. I never thought for a minute that my angle on this would be swayed in the least by my black thumb. (Who knows; maybe so; the human mind is a flexible device easily bent unseen.) On the contrary, I'd think that the fact I do not grow my own leaf frees me from having any unconscious bias in favor of my own home grown because I don't have skin in the game. The only experience of home grown leaf I have had is a few leaves and cigars sent me by others here. I have no results of my own to encourage me to extrapolate.

Look, let's say that you and I plant burgundy grapes in our back yards. Neither back yard is a sunny hillside in Bourgogne handed down from great great grandpa and amply proven over centuries to have a special climate, nor do we have that limestone and marl soil, much less are we the tweak oenologists who know just what will make those grapes thrive. Burgundy will grow here; but not like there. We can make a fair wine and enjoy it. But let's be frank: it's not gonna be Gran Cru. Neither are we apt to put some bottles away in a cool limestone cellar for several score years to fetch a fabulous price at the end of the century. Quibbling whether this wine has been aged or stored is not the point. The point is that we don't have the time, neither the time behind us nor the time before us. I just don't see where you can refute that.

What can we do? We can make something unique. When the wife and I go tasting in New York, we are not looking for fine French Burgundy. We look for Niagara and Catawba. Not worth a hundred bucks a bottle by a long shot; but unique in their ways. This we can do.

The point I am trying to "pontificate" is that the answer to whether the tobacco you grow will equal what you can buy is: No. Why? 1) you don't have the background, 2) you don't have a decade to age your leaf, 3) your back yard ain't Pinar del Rio.

How many times have we met a person very good at what they have spent a lifetime learning to do, we ask them, how long did it take you to learn how to do this? What do they inevitably reply? "Brother, I have been doing this for forty years and I learn something new every day." I am sixty six. I don't have forty years. Time. Time is valuable. Time, wisely invested, yields a better product. Accept it.

And not just time; but volume as well. The machine I videotaped yesterday in McSherrystown rolls 500 cigars in 35 minutes. By the time you stop to pee, take a break, re-fill the glue jugs, or whatever, you are still outputting 5,000 cigars a shift. Say that you and I bought this same machine. Truck it down to your place, set it up, read the manual, and turn it on. The first day we would roll a ten year supply. Then we would put a tarp over the machine and come back ten years later. Whereas Joanne or Mary Lou or whoever will be back early tomorrow morning to knock off another five thou. It takes the gal I spoke to four or five months to train one of the two capable pairs of hands needed to run that machine. That's a half million cigars. Bob, we have no chance of even knowing which end is up at that rate. I'm sure the same applies to raising leaf. Our quarter acre will never raise us to the expertise AJ attains. How could it?

No. On this side you have the pro. On that side you have the hobbyist.

All of which is the wrong question. You are not growing your own to be the equal of Don's Aleman any more than you are rolling your own to look as nice as an Opus X. There's something else involved.


Bob, if you think you can provide the exception, let's have a smoke off. Let's have a blind taste test. Roll your best stock, roll some WLT stock of as similar a blend as possible, and let's put it in the hands of an independent panel of three trained palates who are not members here and who don't know you or me. I'm sure we can find some qualified guys at the other forum. I'll be glad to throw in some leaf for a test like that. Our three can hold up their paddles and then we'll know.




As for the rest, who posted about ciggies and snus and pipe, our original poster was asking about cigar leaf, not cigarettes, snuff, nor pipe tobacco. Cigarettes have gone all to hell since I was a yoot, I know that. Dunno about the other.
 

deluxestogie

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Let's see. Grapes? Wines? How about cheese? Are you suggesting that artisanal cheese makers should aspire to create a block of Kraft cheddar? Anyone who has grown vegetables or fruits at home (with their hobby skills) can, after a season or two of experience, produce better products than they can find in any supermarket. The same is true of pickles or jams and jellies. And home-baked bread and pastries! But analogies with other consumer products are generally misleading.

I believe that the mystique marketing of popular cigar publications has succeeded in misinforming the smokers of premium cigars into believing that there is a good reason why they should part with $5 or $10 or $20 for a cigar.

Will I step outside, and settle this once and for all? Nope. I am content (in fact, delighted) with my tobacco and the cigars and pipe blends that come from it. I have sampled superior whole leaf from fellow members, as well as superb pipe blends that they have graciously shared. Hell, when FmGrowit was still growing his own tobacco, he produced some remarkable and rare leaf, which I was fortunate enough to purchase. I can't recall the last time I bothered to visit the local tobacconist.

I will just say to novice growers who may stumble across this discussion that anyone who is determined to succeed at growing his or her own tobacco, and willing to learn how to cure and finish it, will be able to smile at the naysayers.

Bob
 

ArizonaDave

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The point is that we don't have the time, neither the time behind us nor the time before us. I just don't see where you can refute that.

The point I am trying to "pontificate" is that the answer to whether the tobacco you grow will equal what you can buy is: No. Why? 1) you don't have the background, 2) you don't have a decade to age your leaf, 3) your back yard ain't Pinar del Rio.

No. On this side you have the pro. On that side you have the hobbyist.

Those are a lot of assumptions!

1) We don't have the time (behind us nor before us). A) How do you know we don't have the time? Are you personally the "Time Keeper?"??

2) You don't have the background A) Have you personally been watching Bob over the last few years? If so, I think that might violate certain stalker laws?

3) You don't have a decade to age your leaf A) How do you know this? How do you know how long anybody has?

4) Your back yard ain't Pinar del Rio. A) No, it probably isn't, but you don't know what Pinar del Rio has put in them. Floor Scraps? Maybe Dirt? Possibly Chemical sprays? There's no way of knowing what chemicals PDR has in them currently.

5) On this side you have the pro. On that side you have the hobbyist. A) Actually the "hobbyist" should be changed to Farmer, whether small or big. The so called "Pro's" are usually someone who work for big companies. The Pro's usually aren't the farmers in this scenario. They have no idea usually how to farm. They get paid to crank out as many Cigars as they can. This is not a "Fair" comparison. You're possibly buying into the media myth made by big tobacco? After all, a lot of money goes into making these cigars look glamorous. I don't think most of them are. However, if you criticize hobbyists, make sure you've sampled ALL their tobacco before making assumptions.

Yes, Don's WLT Tobacco is the BEST available. After this post, I'm not sure you'll get many farmers willing to share their tobacco?
 

DGBAMA

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I don't grow my own to duplicate ANY COMMERCIALLY AVAILABLE SMOKE OR TOBACCO PRODUCT. Cigar, cigarette, or otherwise. I grow with the goal of making a tobacco product that I enjoy equally, or more. Which I have already accomplished in just my first two years growing. And saved a ton of money in the process.

I will never grow a pound of "A" grade CT Shade Wrapper in a single season, The commercial guys with thousands of plants have this advantage. Considering top quality wrapper represents as little as 10% of the leaf produced from each plant and the thin leaves can be 50 or more per pound, I would have to grow way too many plants to be feasible. Will I ever have 10 year old thick as leather Dominican liguero from my garden, likely NO. Thankfully we have WLT to supplement these shortcomings of home growing.
 

webmost

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I think it's a shame you guys get so darn defensive over this topic. We got sentences all in caps and crazy comparisons to Kraft imitation cheese food substance and all kinds of exclamation points. Everybody gets so teed off they don't seem to read as far as the point I am aiming at.

I do think an empirical proof could be a fun project to watch unfold. In fact, I logged on here for the purpose of putting my money where my mouth is. I could be wrong, see, and it would be worth the money for me to find out.

Here's what I propose:

If any of you want to put your leaf up against Don's, you contribute enough all home grown tobacco for three cigars. I contribute enough of Don's goodness for three cigars, from what I have on hand here. We send our leaf to our new FTT friend Mike Brylinski (who, you gotta admit, rolls a very pretty stick) (I will undertake to talk him into it). He rolls them, puts an A on one, a B on the other. He sends them to three fellers on cigar.com who regularly review cigars for pubs and whatever (I will undertake to line these guys up). We ask the simple question: which contains the better quality leaf regardless of construction or blend? They select A or B. Then Mike tells us who was A and who was B. The winner by a majority of two to one gets a pair of those nifty special blends that Don offers. his choice at the other's expense. The winner of a grand slam three votes to none gets four.

This could be fun. It's the scientific method and a manly wager all at once. And it's a project that takes a while to unfold, which I like long term projects. We get to speculate and anticipate on an FTT showdown thread for a couple months.

Who's up for the challenge?

 
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