Buy Tobacco Leaf Online | Whole Leaf Tobacco

Hazards or benifits from cross pollination of tobacco plant varietys.

Status
Not open for further replies.

deluxestogie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
23,931
Points
113
Location
near Blacksburg, VA
Levi,
Tobacco self-pollinates at about a 90% rate. So every unprotected year of pollination results in a 10% contamination with other strains within a radius of about 1/2 mile. Just bag the ones you want for seed. It's easy and solves the problem.

Bob
 

Levi Gross

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
678
Points
93
Location
Central, Indiana. USA.
Thank you for this information. Silly question but, what kind of bag do I use without smothering the plant and how does it prevent outside pollen contaminates from reaching the seed/flowers I am trying to protect?
Levi,
Tobacco self-pollinates at about a 90% rate. So every unprotected year of pollination results in a 10% contamination with other strains within a radius of about 1/2 mile. Just bag the ones you want for seed. It's easy and solves the problem.

Bob
 

deluxestogie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
23,931
Points
113
Location
near Blacksburg, VA
I use Agribon-AG15 to sew my bags (30" tall x 24" wide). [http://www.johnnyseeds.com/tools-su...arrier-9057.html?cgid=insect-barrier#start=1] It keeps everything out except water and air.

But tobacco is cross-pollinated almost entirely by insects, so any fine mesh fabric that serves as an insect barrier will do the job. Wind pollination (as with corn, for example) is nearly nonexistent with tobacco.

Some members use "wedding veil" mesh for making bags, as well as organza. Many members have attested to the use of 5 gallon paint strainer bags [https://www.lowes.com/pd/Blue-Hawk-...trainers-Fits-Container-Size-5-Gallon/1008387], which are available for purchase from most big box home improvement stores. For a small number of bagged plants, purchasing paint strainer bags (5 gal, not the 1 gal size) seems like the way to go. You slip it over the bud head before any blossoms have opened (or remove any open ones), and tied it around the stalk below the crow foot. If the bud head grows too much, and threatens to burst the bag, then just remove it, prune the bud head, and replace the bag.

Be sure to label the bagged heads by some means, so that you can tell what the variety is months later.

Bob
 

Levi Gross

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
678
Points
93
Location
Central, Indiana. USA.
Airborne cross pollination was my biggest worry. Now that I have this new information, this years grow is looking very promising for seed production and leaf. I’m so happy to learn this. As some of the seed I have was from GRIN and they told me when they sent them that it would be the last. It was as a courtesy for having been registered with them in the past but will no longer supply tobacco seed to the common layperson.
 

Levi Gross

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
678
Points
93
Location
Central, Indiana. USA.
Rustica Seed:.1. Drosgi Black-blue
2. Chickamauga Cherokee
3. PNE 417-4
4. ZFA 3544
5. Mahorka #8
Tabacum Seed: 1. Little Yellow
2.Red Russian
3. Pennsylvania Red
4. RG8
5. Mississippi Heirloom
6.Orinoco
I have honestly not done enough research on any of these variants from GRIN to know exactly what I have.
I would suggest to save the seeds from GRIN strains, even them have problems in refreshing their seed stock. Did they sent you some rare/unusual strain?

pier
 

deluxestogie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
23,931
Points
113
Location
near Blacksburg, VA
Little Yellow is a dark-air variety. I've used it as a condiment in cigars and pipe blends.

PA Red is a cigar variety that is fairly productive, and provides a leathery, dark woody aroma. It is smokable with only 6-9 months of aging, but is way better after kilning.

Orinoco is a prototypical flue-cure variety. It is the source variety of the original Virginia tobacco, from colonial times.

Bob
 

Hasse SWE

Well-Known Member
Founding Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2013
Messages
1,315
Points
63
Location
Sweden (Värnamo)
Levi it's a interesting seed-list you have. I don't know were to start but my eyes find a variant named "RG#8" It's a Flue-Cured variant pretty similar to K:326, I have seen it in some old studies and a I have earlier spoke to a grower about it. It should be "more nitrogen (N)-efficient than K326". Red Russian are perhaps one of the earliest known N.Tabacum variants. Some say that it's looking like the original Havana types. I can't tell if it's true or not but if you grow it you will see something interesting. The leaf's look little like N.Rustica but the flowers is Red types of N.Tabacum. I have been spoken with a Swedish man how did some studies of tobacco's between 1960-1970's and he told me that Red Russian are one of the most interesting tobacco's he have ever look at. Normally you can take a leaf and study and jump owner one and do a similar check on the leaf over that and then tell information about the leaf between. But in Red Russian it's not the same. One leaf can have high level of example nicotine and the next one have pretty low level. So it's a pretty unsafe variant in that way.
 

Levi Gross

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
678
Points
93
Location
Central, Indiana. USA.
I really appreciate everyone’s help with this. I’ve been scratching around in the dark for knowledge. I’m finally learning my way around the forum as well. There is so much to take in and learn.
 

Levi Gross

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
678
Points
93
Location
Central, Indiana. USA.
So here’s my next question and I’m hoping that I’m sticking with the main idea of this thread do I need to worry about my seed production over time degenerating and producing less favorable plants or becoming weak or infertile
 

deluxestogie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
23,931
Points
113
Location
near Blacksburg, VA
...do I need to worry about my seed production over time degenerating and producing less favorable plants or becoming weak or infertile
Short answer: No

If you properly bag your seed heads, allow them to fully mature, dry them completely (usually indoors) prior to collecting the seed, and store the seed in a cool and dry container, then the seed will remain viable for up to 10 years or more. The seed should always produce the same plants with the same vigor (assuming they were pure strain varieties to begin with).

The old tobacco literature (19th century and early 20th century) commonly discusses the observation that new tobacco varieties tend, over a period of a few years, to resemble older, local varieties, suggesting that new seed would need to be imported every year or two. This was all written before any attention was paid to Mendelian genetics. What was actually being observed was the effect of cross-pollination with other local varieties, since the seed heads were not systematically bagged.

So, bag them, and store the seed well, and you will produce the same tobacco for years.

Bob
 

Levi Gross

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
678
Points
93
Location
Central, Indiana. USA.
Short answer: No

If you properly bag your seed heads, allow them to fully mature, dry them completely (usually indoors) prior to collecting the seed, and store the seed in a cool and dry container, then the seed will remain viable for up to 10 years or more. The seed should always produce the same plants with the same vigor (assuming they were pure strain varieties to begin with).

The old tobacco literature (19th century and early 20th century) commonly discusses the observation that new tobacco varieties tend, over a period of a few years, to resemble older, local varieties, suggesting that new seed would need to be imported every year or two. This was all written before any attention was paid to Mendelian genetics. What was actually being observed was the effect of cross-pollination with other local varieties, since the seed heads were not systematically bagged.

So, bag them, and store the seed well, and you will produce the same tobacco for years.

Bob
Thank you I will take the proper measures to get good results
 

Smokin Harley

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2014
Messages
2,573
Points
48
Location
Grant ,Alabama
Curiosity prompted this thread. I understand the importance of maintaining a pure strain of heirloom varietys. That needs no emphasis for me personaly. What are the documented results from past records to indicate detrimental or positive effects from intentional cross pollination of tobacco in studys or plant grafting.

BarG

[Edit: plant splicing to plant grafting. It was on the tip of my tongue but couldn't spit it out]

Cigar Aficianado from last fall (im thinking it was Octoberish, actress Maggie Siff is on the cover) has a nice article of how tobacco ,especially "lost" heirloom varieties are being bred with the current disease resistant ones to bring back that old world tobacco flavor without compromising their disease resistance.
Their vault of seed is kept at 39 degrees F,double locked protected by fire doors.
Basically and in paraphrase - they take the heirloom mother side of their intentional cross and cross it with the disease resistant one they choose. Take the 100 offspring of that and cross it back to the mother plant for another 100 plants , and then once again 50 more . By then the result has the disease resistance yet retains the flavor of the parent plant. Its a good article , find it online im sure .
 

deluxestogie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
23,931
Points
113
Location
near Blacksburg, VA
It's worth keeping in mind that during the multiple years of intentional crossing and back-crossing, the resulting plants must be grown in soil infested with the disease for which resistance is being selected, and those that appear resistant must be fermented, aged and then evaluated in a taste comparison with the original heirloom whose characteristics are desired. Productivity of the final selections must also be evaluated. The process takes about 7 years or so to complete, and is expensive, labor intensive, and requires access to specific growing areas as well as resistant strains.

It can certainly be accomplished, and has been done repeatedly over the past century. The purpose of the USDA "Agricultural Explorers" back in the 1930s was to scour the remote regions of the world for tobacco and vegetable varieties that might possess resistance genes to various plant diseases.

If I were to undertake just a single such project of intentional crossing, in order to achieve resistance to a single disease, it would essentially consume my entire tobacco growing effort for many consecutive years, and produce hundreds of pounds of less than desirable tobacco. That latter comment is based on the reality that many of the varieties known to already have resistance to specific diseases are not the varieties of tobacco that I would enjoy smoking.

Bob
 

Levi Gross

Well-Known Member
Joined
Mar 31, 2016
Messages
678
Points
93
Location
Central, Indiana. USA.
It seems to me that one would really have to take several contributing factors to mind when undertaking such a long and complicated task. I could see doing these things out of absolute necessity to preserve, improve, or even overcome some major problem but just to do it. Well, I'd say one must be very rich and has the time to do whatever he pleases. I am afforded neither luxury. However, I do find this information very interesting and noteworthy.
 

ChinaVoodoo

Moderator
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
7,166
Points
113
Location
Edmonton, AB, CA
The complex breeding programs which produced modern cultivars are like we've discussed, involving a lot of multi year selections and back crosses for stability. Usually, done with specific goals in mind. Disease resistance being the main reason.

Let's suppose your only goal was to make something "different", don't you think a simple grow of 10 to 20 plants, selecting seed from the most desirable plant every year for 7 years would result in a stable cross?
 

deluxestogie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
23,931
Points
113
Location
near Blacksburg, VA
You've got to start selfing the satisfactory variant, and continue selection and selfing for several years, before the heterozygosity approaches zero.

Bob
 

ChinaVoodoo

Moderator
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
7,166
Points
113
Location
Edmonton, AB, CA
You've got to start selfing the satisfactory variant, and continue selection and selfing for several years, before the heterozygosity approaches zero.

Bob

I read that as you agree that if you had no practical purpose for the cross, that stabilizing it wouldn't be complicated but would take time.
 

deluxestogie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
23,931
Points
113
Location
near Blacksburg, VA
Correct. If you self a hybrid for enough generations, while simultaneously weeding out the specimens that diverge from your planned outcome, then you tend to eliminate the heterozygous alleles. So, for example, if 3 of those heterozygous genes are Aa, Bb and Cc (Cap = dominant; lower case = recessive), repeated selfing tends toward AA or aa, BB or bb and CC or cc. Which of these, and which combination of those three homozygous genes, will be selected by your own selection criteria of their phenotype: e.g. "I like the big, thick-leaf one that cures to black."

If disease resistance is on your list of criteria, then you need a basis for saying which exemplars are resistant or not resistant. But, for a beauty contest, just as with selecting tomatoes for durable shipping characteristics, you just keep on selecting for your criteria, until selfing is stable from one generation to the next. Typically, this takes 5 to 7 generations, with selection.

In practical tobacco terms, the Piloto Cubano (Puerto Rico) that I grew last year produced tall plants with longer, narrower leaves, as well as somewhat shorter plants with wider leaves. That seed batch was probably not a stable variety. (i.e. the seed had been collected from a plant--or several generations of plants--in Puerto Rico that had been exposed to pollen from some other variety.) I've decided to select for the shorter plant, larger leaf, in my growing of it in the future. I expect that to require at least a few generations to complete.

Bob
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top