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High sugar content of Va. causes toungue bite myth

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craigmadbricky

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I have had this discussion with a few brothers in passing.
The higher sugar content is not what causes toungue bite. It's the higher PH of some of them, your own PH, pipe, and mouth environment.
George Pease elaborates:
Some Popular Myths
High sugar virginias “bite”

I can't count the number of times I've read this. For some reason, it's commonly believed that the more sugar in the leaf, the more “bite” the smoker will experience. While it's true that some tobaccos with a lot of sweetness do tend to irritate the smoker, it's not the sugar content that's responsible.
Tongue “bite” is a response to smoke with a higher pH (more alkaline) than the mouth and tongue are used to. Some tobaccos, notably burleys, contain a high percentage of nitrogenous compounds, and produce a more alkaline smoke. The dreaded “burley curse” often results. Tobacco producers will work to mitigate this by adding sugars to the casing sauces. Sugars, when burned, actually acidify the smoke, resulting in less “bite.” Virginia tobaccos are often blended with burleys to perform the same function.
Body chemistry also seems to play a significant role. The same tobaccos that will cause one person significant distress can be a source of bliss to another. And, our mouth's environmental factors change over time, and react to things like what we eat and what we drink. Unfortunately, it's not simple. I've never known a tobacco that "never bit" 100% of the people 100% of the time.
And, worse, we have to add the pipe into the equation. I've actually had pipes that would turn the most mild-mannered tobaccos into flamethower fuel. Tobaccos that are reliably comfortable for me have been rendered into pain-inducing tinder. Add differences in smoking technique, and the complexity of the system is magnified to the point of intractibility. But, it's not the sugar in Virginias that cause the bite.

Thank you George.
http://www.glpease.com/FAQ.html
 

Gdaddy

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A scientific study conducted by the Agricultural Department in 1908 determined that high PH was the problem causing harshness and tongue bite. They did many tests and found the application of citric acid would lower the PH and render the tobacco much smoother. The best results could be had by applying the citric acid before the completion of fermentation but simple spraying can yield good results.

An interesting read...

https://books.google.com/books?id=5...wBDgK#v=onepage&q=citric acid tobacco&f=false
 

SmokesAhoy

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My only complaint is when people talk about tobaccos as a Virginia tobacco. I read his FAQ which was nice, but the way he refers to Virginia tobaccos makes me wonder what category of tobacco he is taking about.
 

Planter

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I have yet to come along a high-sugar tobacco which doesn´t bite potentially.
At the same time, I enjoy cigar leaf in the pipe.

I wonder if the fast burning rate is responsible, so theoretically smooth (slightly acidic) Virginia smoke suddenly becomes chemically aggressive (very alkaline?) at high combustion temperatures (???)

This year I´m growing Japan-8 (an Oriental). It has a delicious, licorice-like aroma, and although the leaves air-cure to a dark chocolate brown, they contain A LOT of sugar, appr. as much as the Prilep I sun-cured last year. It is a fast-burner, even after 4 weeks of kilning. While a normal pipe bowl of 2g normally lasts me at least an hour, that one burns in 40 minutes or less. It tends to bite, and the bowl gets warmer than I like it, even with the slowest of sipping.

I enjoy Rattray's Marlin Flake and stuff like this, but I'm careful with them. I have no issues with dark fired Virginia (like in the old Austrian Virginier cigars).

I'm not so sure the high sugar / Virginia / tongue bite relationship is just a myth. Search a random pipe discussion forum for "bite" and do the same in a cigar discussion forum. Notice the huge difference in number of results.
I know some people who like cigars but don't take a pipe out anymore, and while they won't "admit" it, I think they became tired of the bite issue.
I don't think the solution lies in torturing yourself until a "leather tongue" develops which doesn´t feel it anymore. Note that many weathered pipe smokers experience tongue bite "for a few days" after not smoking for a while. Following that logic means if you are only smoking for pleasure occasionally, you are screwed (a.k.a bite every time).
I've observed as well that there are not many offerings leaning towards the cigar-type tobaccos for the pipe anymore (and most in that category are proudly presented as nicotine sledge hammers). The vast majority of commercial pipe tobaccos are high in sugar (like 5-15% sugars routinely added even to Virginia mixtures). Perhaps that's geared towards cigarette smokers, I don' t know.

Now, why do cigars generally don´t bite? I've tried to eliminate a few points by testing, like:

# cigars have a higher filter effect: If that was the explanation, a chimney pipe bowl tightly filled with (bitey) pipe tobacco should do the trick. In my experience, it doesn't, while I can smoke a good cigar down to the nub.

# cigars have a larger "mouthpiece" diameter, and therefore spread the smoke more evenly: Made a 1cm wide mouthpiece and attached it to a pipe, did not do much against bite.

# puffing frequency - a cigar generally should be drawn on about once a minute. Any faster than that, and many tend to burn unpleasantly hot and bitter. Most decent cigars allow for that frequency without going out.
Now, generally in a pipe it doesn't work that way. Filling a narrow, high pipe bowl dense like a short filler cigar doesn't provide a similar ember and burn. Not even with the same cigar tobacco.
One solution to that lies in "breath smoking" (if I remember right Greg Pease has actually a description of it on his website). It provides just enough oxygen to the bowl to keep the ember for 20, 30 or more seconds before the next proper draw.
I found this eliminates bite most efficiently, even better than active charcoal filters. I think that´s also what many experienced pipe smokers do unconsciously (esp. when clenching).

# cigar tobaccos are generally fully fermented and relatively low in sugar.


I found:

"Breath smoking" with low frequency fully fermented, low sugar tobaccos ---> never any bite anymore, pipe bowls usually don' get more than lukewarm, quite independent of the pipe used.

High sugar tobaccos still are a bit tricky. I had some burn through the bowl while the pipe was lying down for several minutes. Some seem to have a chemical bite no matter how cool the smoke. I believe the latter is an individual thing.

Now, pure cigar tobacco is probably not everybody's thing in a pipe, since its properties come through stronger in the pipe than in a cigar. Some sugar can balance that. Still, I believe tobaccos containing NECESSARY amounts of sugar smoke better than tobaccos loaded with the MAXIMUM possible amount of sugar.
 

Jitterbugdude

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My only complaint is when people talk about tobaccos as a Virginia tobacco. I read his FAQ which was nice, but the way he refers to Virginia tobaccos makes me wonder what category of tobacco he is taking about.

"Virginia" Tobacco is what pipe smokers call Flue Cured tobacco.
 

deluxestogie

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Planter,
Just add a tiny increment of Perique to your biting flue-cured tobacco. (For cased commercial tobaccos, you're on your own.) Aside from any contribution to flavor and aroma, Perique raises the pH.

It's curious that blenders of commercial tobacco, who knowingly add biting chemicals to their pipe blends, are kind enough to offer advice about what to do about the bite they've caused. Why do they add the chemicals? For increased shelf life. For eternal squishy feel, without molding. If you've got to can it and sell it, the quality of the blend can not be top priority.

Bob
 

Muskrat

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Planter,
Just add a tiny increment of Perique to your biting flue-cured tobacco. (For cased commercial tobaccos, you're on your own.) Aside from any contribution to flavor and aroma, Perique raises the pH.

It's curious that blenders of commercial tobacco, who knowingly add biting chemicals to their pipe blends, are kind enough to offer advice about what to do about the bite they've caused. Why do they add the chemicals? For increased shelf life. For eternal squishy feel, without molding. If you've got to can it and sell it, the quality of the blend can not be top priority.

Bob

"Perique raises the pH."

I thought tongue bite was caused by high pH, so why would you want to raise it? The way Perique is specially fermented, I would think it to be more acid, and thus adding it would lower the pH, removing the tongue bite.
 

Hasse SWE

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I have yet to come along a high-sugar tobacco which doesn´t bite potentially.
At the same time, I enjoy cigar leaf in the pipe.

I wonder if the fast burning rate is responsible, so theoretically smooth (slightly acidic) Virginia smoke suddenly becomes chemically aggressive (very alkaline?) at high combustion temperatures (???)

This year I´m growing Japan-8 (an Oriental). It has a delicious, licorice-like aroma, and although the leaves air-cure to a dark chocolate brown, they contain A LOT of sugar, appr. as much as the Prilep I sun-cured last year. It is a fast-burner, even after 4 weeks of kilning. While a normal pipe bowl of 2g normally lasts me at least an hour, that one burns in 40 minutes or less. It tends to bite, and the bowl gets warmer than I like it, even with the slowest of sipping.

I enjoy Rattray's Marlin Flake and stuff like this, but I'm careful with them. I have no issues with dark fired Virginia (like in the old Austrian Virginier cigars).

I'm not so sure the high sugar / Virginia / tongue bite relationship is just a myth. Search a random pipe discussion forum for "bite" and do the same in a cigar discussion forum. Notice the huge difference in number of results.
I know some people who like cigars but don't take a pipe out anymore, and while they won't "admit" it, I think they became tired of the bite issue.
I don't think the solution lies in torturing yourself until a "leather tongue" develops which doesn´t feel it anymore. Note that many weathered pipe smokers experience tongue bite "for a few days" after not smoking for a while. Following that logic means if you are only smoking for pleasure occasionally, you are screwed (a.k.a bite every time).
I've observed as well that there are not many offerings leaning towards the cigar-type tobaccos for the pipe anymore (and most in that category are proudly presented as nicotine sledge hammers). The vast majority of commercial pipe tobaccos are high in sugar (like 5-15% sugars routinely added even to Virginia mixtures). Perhaps that's geared towards cigarette smokers, I don' t know.

Now, why do cigars generally don´t bite? I've tried to eliminate a few points by testing, like:

# cigars have a higher filter effect: If that was the explanation, a chimney pipe bowl tightly filled with (bitey) pipe tobacco should do the trick. In my experience, it doesn't, while I can smoke a good cigar down to the nub.

# cigars have a larger "mouthpiece" diameter, and therefore spread the smoke more evenly: Made a 1cm wide mouthpiece and attached it to a pipe, did not do much against bite.

# puffing frequency - a cigar generally should be drawn on about once a minute. Any faster than that, and many tend to burn unpleasantly hot and bitter. Most decent cigars allow for that frequency without going out.
Now, generally in a pipe it doesn't work that way. Filling a narrow, high pipe bowl dense like a short filler cigar doesn't provide a similar ember and burn. Not even with the same cigar tobacco.
One solution to that lies in "breath smoking" (if I remember right Greg Pease has actually a description of it on his website). It provides just enough oxygen to the bowl to keep the ember for 20, 30 or more seconds before the next proper draw.
I found this eliminates bite most efficiently, even better than active charcoal filters. I think that´s also what many experienced pipe smokers do unconsciously (esp. when clenching).

# cigar tobaccos are generally fully fermented and relatively low in sugar.


I found:

"Breath smoking" with low frequency fully fermented, low sugar tobaccos ---> never any bite anymore, pipe bowls usually don' get more than lukewarm, quite independent of the pipe used.

High sugar tobaccos still are a bit tricky. I had some burn through the bowl while the pipe was lying down for several minutes. Some seem to have a chemical bite no matter how cool the smoke. I believe the latter is an individual thing.

Now, pure cigar tobacco is probably not everybody's thing in a pipe, since its properties come through stronger in the pipe than in a cigar. Some sugar can balance that. Still, I believe tobaccos containing NECESSARY amounts of sugar smoke better than tobaccos loaded with the MAXIMUM possible amount of sugar.

Thanks for the information, Perhaps I could start looking for Japan-8 seed, sounds really interesting.
 

Hasse SWE

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Thanks Wallace, I have some flowers I will order from him..
Just need to think about the tobacco, was just reading about Japan-8..
Sounds like a good oral-snuff tobacco, problem is "high sugar". That it have low nicotine actually fits me well.
 

deluxestogie

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"Perique raises the pH."

I thought tongue bite was caused by high pH, so why would you want to raise it? The way Perique is specially fermented, I would think it to be more acid, and thus adding it would lower the pH, removing the tongue bite.
Tongue bite is caused by the acidity (that is, a low pH). Perique is much more alkaline, and so it raises the pH (makes the blend less acidic).

Bob
 

Muskrat

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Tongue bite is caused by the acidity (that is, a low pH). Perique is much more alkaline, and so it raises the pH (makes the blend less acidic).

Bob

Ok, now I'm confused. George Pease is quoted in post #1 in this thread saying, "Tongue “bite” is a response to smoke with a higher pH (more alkaline) than the mouth and tongue are used to."
Also, in the first post on this thread fairtradetobacco.com/threads/5325-How-to-make-strong-tobacco-more-mild-and-smooth says to add citric acid.
 

deluxestogie

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I can't speak for Mr. Pease. "Tongue bite" may mean different things to different people. Flue-cured tobacco produces smoke that is more acidic than air-cured tobacco. Perique and fermented cigar leaf produce smoke that is more alkaline. In addition to the acid bite on the tip of the tongue, cased tobaccos may also contain flavorings that are often compounds that are chemically described as esters. These bite the tongue. Propylene glycol and glycerine, often added to commercial pipe tobaccos, increase the need to puff the tobacco more aggressively, in order to get it to burn. This may be described as tongue bite.

The nicotine in acidic smoke is not absorbed to a significant extent my the mucous membranes of the mouth and nasopharynx, but is easily absorbed in the alveoli of the lungs. So cigarette smokers (flue-cured tobacco smokers) need to inhale the smoke to get the nicotine. The nicotine of alkaline smoke is readily absorbed by the mucous membranes of the mouth and nasopharynx, so just puffing (without inhaling) cigar smoke, and smoke from a more alkaline blend of pipe tobacco delivers the nicotine without the need to inhale the smoke into the lungs.

Adding citric acid (or any acid) to any tobacco shifts the pH lower (more acidic), and changes smoke that is harsh on the throat to one that is less harsh on the throat, but has more tongue bite. Just what "smooth" means is not clear.

In general, a cigarette taste (or pure "Virginia" pipe tobacco taste) is acidic. Adding a more alkaline tobacco, such as Perique or cigar leaf or dark air cured tobacco, is a more cigar like sensation in the mouth and throat and nose. Burley is more alkaline than flue-cured leaf, but less alkaline than cigar leaf and dark air and Perique.

Bob
 

Jitterbugdude

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Well said Bob!
Personally I think the tongue bite issue that most pipe smokers experience is due to the crap the blenders put into their product. All commercial blends have stuff besides tobacco added to it. It is a lot easier for a blender to go on about pH and tongue bite instead of just saying " Tongue bite is from the crap I add to my tobacco that I sell you!"
 

Planter

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Just need to think about the tobacco, was just reading about Japan-8..
Sounds like a good oral-snuff tobacco, problem is "high sugar". That it have low nicotine actually fits me well.

It's a surprisingly good producer. I'm trying an earlier harvest and stalk curing at the moment to see what it does to sugar content and burn. Some plants gave me already a proper second harvest (= 2 full stalks curing) and are growing again. Slug control needs a bit more attention earlier in the season, since the lower leaves are very close to the ground. Flavour and smell are very nice indeed, like if a mild licorice+cocoa casing was applied. If I only could get the fast burn under control, it would make the perfect pipe tobacco on its own.
 

Hasse SWE

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It's a surprisingly good producer. I'm trying an earlier harvest and stalk curing at the moment to see what it does to sugar content and burn. Some plants gave me already a proper second harvest (= 2 full stalks curing) and are growing again. Slug control needs a bit more attention earlier in the season, since the lower leaves are very close to the ground. Flavour and smell are very nice indeed, like if a mild licorice+cocoa casing was applied. If I only could get the fast burn under control, it would make the perfect pipe tobacco on its own.
Thanks for the information, will absolute keep it in mind. Snail's are one of my biggest problem. Yes you have given me something to think about (but I have times to think)..
Think I already have a great mixes of mostly Dark varieties to grow next year.. Will take a look one em and decide what to grow and where..
 

Planter

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After writing the above, I realized that I had already some stalk-cured stored away about 2 weeks ago. So I took 2 leaves out (they were in perfect case), cut wide stripes (4-5mm) and filled a bowl.
No bite.
Burn was well controllable, the bowl didn't get hot by itself.
The taste was that of salty licorice.
The smell was similar to melting pine rosin (sweet, balsamic, mint/camphor) - like straight Latakia, but in a mild, inoffensive way.
I find it delicious.
SHE-who-hates-tobacco detected a nice campfire, not a tobacco smell.

I don't think this needs kilning.
(Interesting, I harvested that as early as possible, like cigar leaf. Samsun and other Orientals get a cigar character that way, this one doesn't, it's still quite sweet.)

Regarding the snails - it is growing well in relatively small pots. My highest plants in the ground are not much bigger, 3-4 feet, with the flower going much higher. Flowers are quite white, btw. A pretty garden plant.
 
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