Deluxestogie's Unheated Foam Fermentation Box Fiasco

[deluxestogie]

The Theory

PART 1 of 2

My notion of what happens when tobacco hands are piled into a large, traditional pilon is that only the middle of the pile ferments. This is why the pilon must be taken apart and rebuilt a number of times, switching the inner tobacco hands to the outside, and the outer hands to the inside. My thought is that most of the pile is simply serving as insulation. The pressure from the height of the pile really generates very low psi--certainly less that 1 psi, but does serve to gently compress the krinckled leaf into close contact.

My hope was that by providing a well insulated box in which to gently compress a small number of hands of color-cured tobacco might allow its enzymatic oxidation to generate the same heat as in a pilon. This would be a box without a separate heat source, and only a compost thermometer to determine what was happening within.

I gathered some components for the project:

My plan was to use Plastic Epoxy (either LocTite or JB Weld) to glue together a box made from 2" Foamular extruded polystyrene (XPS) foam. The outer seams would be sealed with Tyvek tape. The top panel would float inside the box, allowing it to be weighted with 3 or 4 one-gallon water jugs. A scrap of 1/8" plywood would help distribute the weight of the jugs evenly across the top. A 19" analog compost thermometer would rest inside the box, at the bottom, and its dial would extend outside the box.

My expectation was that within 48 hours of pressing high-case tobacco hands into the box, and covering it with a sheet of thick plastic for vapor control, the temperature would begin to rise (hopefully to at least 110ºF).

Demonstration of the strength of plastic epoxy bond on XPS foam.

Bob

 

[deluxestogie]

The Experiment

PART 2 of 2

I decided to run a trial of the box using just the Tyvek tape (on the outside seams), and no epoxy. If it looked promising, then it would be a simple matter to re-do it later using the epoxy.

The wire pulls will only allow the floating lid to be lifted when the weights are removed.

I used scissors to split open several 10" x 30" poly-nylon bags, to line the box. One sheet is placed beneath the thermometer probe. Another is used to cover the tobacco hands, once loaded.

I added a total of 8 high-case hands of Swarr-Hibshman tobacco, using the lid to press them as I added them. Each hand weighs about 3/4 to 1 pound. The following two photos show how much the floating lid sank 4 hours after initial loading. Each gallon jug weighs 8 pounds. Given the dimensions of the floating lid, it generates only about 0.07 psi.

The Results

After 72 hours, the compost thermometer showed absolutely no hint of heating, despite the assist of an ambient daytime temperature in the mid to high 80s. Nothing. Following an excellent suggestion from Knucklehead, I removed the tobacco hands, inserted a single seedling heat mat beneath the thermometer probe and bottom poly-nylon sheet. Then I reloaded the tobacco, and replaced the floating lid, the jugs of water, and covered it again with a plastic sheet.

Within 3 hours of adding the heat mat, the temp on the compost thermometer registered 145ºF. I waited another hour. It rose to a stunning 180ºF. I unplugged the mat.

I feel that this experiment is a complete failure.

Considerations:

• it may require a greater mass of tobacco to generate sufficient heat on its own
• the insulation (R-10) may not be sufficient to overcome dissipation of the chemical heat
• the unregulated seedling heat mat (I believe it is 13 to 19 watts) is too much heat, when insulated
• any more complex regulation is not worth the effort, considering the small capacity of the box. I may as well build a full size kiln.

Any comments (or hoots or guffaws) are welcome.

Bob

 

[Smokin Harley]

well, the only "why din'cha, or you shoulda" I can offer is this , heat rises so I think the temp probe should have been anything but on the bottom .Try for one inch up but for optimal readings - middle of the pile . in a compost pile you do need a minimum amount of mass , but for a compost pile to work right you need (to add)50/50 dry / moist material . I'm thinking your hands of leaf were too dry to start with . Pilons are massive ...more like 4 x 4 x 4 so heat can build within the pile .I dont think an 8 inch pile can build or produce the required heat to do much.

 

[rustycase]

Thank you for the nice post, Bob.
Not failure !
A work in progress.
rc

 

[deluxestogie]

...the temp probe should have been anything but on the bottom .Try for one inch up but for optimal readings - middle of the pile...

This is a practical issue. The thermometer is mounted in a fixed position. The tobacco can not be compressed, unless the probe is at the bottom. If the insulation is adequate, then even at the bottom, the thermometer should measure a rise.

This is not compost, and is probably not a bacteriologic process, but rather an enzymatic, exothermic reaction within the lamina. Maybe I'm wrong.

Bob

 

[Smokin Harley]

I'm thinking it would only turn to compost if for whatever reason the temperature was allowed to rise to 125 or over for a long enough period without breaking down the pile to rearrange ,that is...past the point of no return. Interesting subject/theory to ponder...Might have to have a cigar or pipe to figure it out fully. Too bad you're way out east or we could really do some group front porch thinkin about this...

 

[FmGrowit]

1 psi sounds like a reasonable number, besides, 1 is always a good number to start with.

 

[deluxestogie]

1 psi sounds like a reasonable number, besides, 1 is always a good number to start with.

I usually start with 1 idea. Then I try another 1, until I find 1 that works.

Direct pressure from 1 gallon jugs has severe limitations. Their bottoms are typically 6" x 6" = 36 in[sup]2[/sup]. So, unless it rests on a smaller area than the bottom of the jug itself, it starts out providing only 0.22 psi. A 5 gallon bucket (40 pounds of water) has a radius of roughly 6"--> Pi x 6[sup]2[/sup] = 113 in[sup]2[/sup], which get us only to 0.35 psi.

My lever arm cheese press could hang 16 pounds, and generate ~110 pounds at the piston. Still not even close, when pressing on the high surface area of the floating lid for the fermentation box.

If we imagine a 5 foot stack of tobacco (a pilon), how much would a 1 square inch column of that tobacco weigh? 1" x 1" x 60"? It's really not all that compressed in the pilon, not like a tobacco bale. I'm guessing less than a half pound. And another question: if we assume the pilon is 6' wide by 6' long, what R value of insulation do you suppose 3' of that tobacco provides (from the exterior to the very center)?

Bob

P.S. Had this worked, it would have been wonderful. Just put high-case hands of tobacco into a large cooler, add some pressure, then sit back and let it ferment itself. [Unlike a perpetual motion machine, the tobacco lamina do have oxidizable compounds and suitable enzymes to power the process.]

 

[BigBonner]

When we take tobacco down from the rails in my tobacco barns , the weather may have the tobacco in a high or low case .
If we bale tobacco at moisture over 24% it will heat up in the bales .
A ( small Bales ) Bale is 12" D X 30" T X 36" W . Each bale will weigh between 75 and 100 pounds

If a wet bale lands in the middle of a stack of bales it will heat up quickly . It will smell sweet and be hot to the touch . If the whole stack of bales are too moist they will heat up the whole stack .
We stack bales flat and 4 bales high . Covering with a plastic tarp will make the pile heat up more and quicker .
If I take one bale and add water to it , it will start heating with in a day . On cold days the bales will steam when loading on my trailer .

I noticed my Perique when I aired it out . I left it on my stripping room table for a full day . When I started putting it back in the small barrel it was starting to heat up a little by just laying in a pile on my table .

 

[deluxestogie]

A ( small Bales ) Bale is 12" D X 30" T X 36" W . Each bale will weigh between 75 and 100 pounds

Inside my foam box, the pressed hands weighed just over 4 pounds. That was 16" x 28" x 3" = 1568 cubic inches. Or 336 cubic inches per pound.
Your 75 pound bales: 12" x 30" x 36" = 12960 cubic inches. Or 172 cubic inches per pound.
Your 100 pound bales: 12" x 30" x 36" = 12960 cubic inches. Or 129 cubic inches per pound.
Your average small bale: ~150 cubic inches per pound.

So my quantity of tobacco either:

• needs to be compressed to 1.5" thick
• needs more water

Maybe both increased pressure and increased moisture are needed. But I'm not comfortable wetting the leaf more than I did. I'm going to surmise that the solution is to add more compression. The floating lid of the XPS foam box is wide enough to allow a total of 8 one-gallon jugs to be place on top.

The high temp produced by the seedling mat required about 16 hours to return to ambient, after the mat was unplugged. So, I believe the insulation is adequate. Since Larry's small bales are only 12" across (6" from center to exterior), in their smallest dimension, and wrapped only in corrugated pasteboard, the R-10 of the foam box is probably higher.

After removing the hands from the XPS foam box, and inspecting them for any sign of mold, they look just fine. Whew! That's 8 large hands of huge, beautiful, Swarr-Hibshman. (I try to run a no-kill tobacco shelter.) After I catch my breath, I'll scrounge up 4 more gallon bottles of water (cost=$4), and give it another try.

As rustycase wisely suggested, it's a work in progress.

Stay tuned. And thanks, to Larry for the data, and to all who have commented so far.

Bob

 

[FmGrowit]

Wouldn't stacked bricks be easier to calculate and achieve the psi you're attempting?

 

[deluxestogie]

Interesting suggestion. Bricks would probably do the trick more easily than water jugs. But:

• I would have to purchase the bricks (~50 cents each)
• I can't drink bricks when the power to my well pump goes out

Bricks would certainly take up less room for storage, but empty jugs can be crushed and tossed. I'll have to consider adding some bricks to the weight of the 4 water jugs that I always keep on hand for emergencies.

Bob

EDIT: Anybody know how much a standard brick weighs?

 

[FmGrowit]

http://blacksburg.craigslist.org/for/5118279422.html

I'm sure there are tons of used bricks all over the place. Check with your local hardware/lumber yard.

 

[ProfessorPangloss]

http://blacksburg.craigslist.org/for/5118279422.html

I'm sure there are tons of used bricks all over the place. Check with your local hardware/lumber yard.

I've been cribbing them from whenever someone around here does foundation work or takes down a chimney. I've collected about two pallets of old-timey no-hole bricks that way for a bomb-ass sidewalk someday. If I get a chance, Bob, I'll bring a bathroom scale and weigh a couple.

 

[BigBonner]

Inside my foam box, the pressed hands weighed just over 4 pounds. That was 16" x 28" x 3" = 1568 cubic inches. Or 336 cubic inches per pound.
Your 75 pound bales: 12" x 30" x 36" = 12960 cubic inches. Or 172 cubic inches per pound.
Your 100 pound bales: 12" x 30" x 36" = 12960 cubic inches. Or 129 cubic inches per pound.
Your average small bale: ~150 cubic inches per pound.

So my quantity of tobacco either:

• needs to be compressed to 1.5" thick
• needs more water

Maybe both increased pressure and increased moisture are needed. But I'm not comfortable wetting the leaf more than I did. I'm going to surmise that the solution is to add more compression. The floating lid of the XPS foam box is wide enough to allow a total of 8 one-gallon jugs to be place on top.

The high temp produced by the seedling mat required about 16 hours to return to ambient, after the mat was unplugged. So, I believe the insulation is adequate. Since Larry's small bales are only 12" across (6" from center to exterior), in their smallest dimension, and wrapped only in corrugated pasteboard, the R-10 of the foam box is probably higher.

After removing the hands from the XPS foam box, and inspecting them for any sign of mold, they look just fine. Whew! That's 8 large hands of huge, beautiful, Swarr-Hibshman. (I try to run a no-kill tobacco shelter.) After I catch my breath, I'll scrounge up 4 more gallon bottles of water (cost=$4), and give it another try.

As rustycase wisely suggested, it's a work in progress.

Stay tuned. And thanks, to Larry for the data, and to all who have commented so far.

Bob

The high moisture is the reason tobacco heats up . I don't believe pressure being the biggest factor here . But there will be a heavy bale on top of my pile that may be a little warm and bales down under will be warmer , maybe because they are insulated by the top bales . But I have had loose leaf high case tobacco heat up with no weight at all on it and open to the air .
I have some light bales that will heat up same as the heavier bales do . I may bale some bales light ( 50LBS ) as I know the leaves are high in moisture . This allows the bales to dry out some before I take to get robbed , I mean the tobacco companies .

I have bales left and I may have to add water to one and see how warm they get and how fast .
I need more time as all this rain has put my hay harvesting way behind .

If this helps . My air cylinder that I press the bales with is 12" w x 36" long and I set my air pressure at around 75 to 80 PSI
If tobacco is in a lower case I up the pressure some . If in a high case I lower my PSI as to make the bales weigh my target weight of 80 to 100 pounds each .

 

[Gmac]

I put 20 pounds of burley in a 5 or 6 gallon white bucket with the old 9th grade lever method.
8 foot 2x4 plus several different lenths for the fulcrum & plywood rounds for the plates. You could hit it with a hammer and it would bounce. the bucket was tapered so it just slid right out.
My wife called it redneck technoligy. Should have taken pictures! Why couldn't you insert the thermometer in the middle after it's compacted??

Gmac

 

[Chicken]

I was following this thread pretty good till the 8'th post...when that einstien equation got threw out there.

Then I got lost

 

[BigBonner]

I was following this thread pretty good till the 8'th post...when that einstien equation got threw out there.

Then I got lost

You are not the only one .
Most good tobacco makings came from mess ups like using the wrong charcoal for flue curing or the long boat rides in a hogs head barrel .
I wonder if Perique started the same way by accidental over watering of a hogs head barrel of tobacco .

 

[deluxestogie]

Grrrrr! I Don't Like Failure!

After some very helpful discussions with BigBonner about spontaneous tobacco heating, I've decided to give it another try.

Changes:

• increased tobacco from 4 to 5 pounds
• packed the tobacco much wetter
• added a brick paver (16 more pounds) to the weights on the floating lid

So, the floating lid now has 50% more weight --> 48 pounds total. Again covered the whole thing with a heavy sheet of plastic.

I will check the thermometer in 3 days. [if I don't peek earlier] If I see no temp rise, then I will start adding more brick pavers.

Bob

EDIT: Sorry about the math belch. I was trying to determine the density (how much it is compressed) of BigBonner's bales vs. my XPS foam box.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Based on "Studies on the Fermentation of Tobacco" by James Johnson, your idea of applying pressure to the tobacco is right.


But i would add that in their experiment, they started at 30C, and may have used a higher water content. See in this chart how they show water content affecting fermentation. They start pretty high.


Edit:
Actually, regarding temperature, it looks like 25C is the sweet spot for starting temperature.