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Pilon method of fermenting / aging tobacco

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LewZephyr

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I get e-mail from various cigar brands and online stores. CAO is one I enjoyed very much when starting on the Cigar Trail.
I got this e-mail about the CAO Pilon. Well of course with the images and animation they look great, but there was a link to learn more about the method.
There it is below. So, just another gimick? My assumption is that there was some history with the pilon method, but that CAO is just referencing it rather than actually investing in it.

http://caocigars.com/art-of-cao/drawing-board/pilon/

Opinions? Insights? Thoughts?
 

Knucklehead

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They make a pretty round pile. I just have a hard time figuring out how a tobacco leaf knows whether it was heated up in a round pile, a square pile, or in a kiln. Maybe I'm missing something. I always figured they used the pilone method because it's cheaper than using electricity but I have no evidence either way.
 

Smokin Harley

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Looks to me they just went back to the old fashioned way ,which isn't a bad thing but now that there is a small recurrence of cigar smokers , they're using it as a selling point by getting back to their roots of tobacco fermentation. I'd sure like to try a round Pilon myself but now that its almost October temperatures and space are not available. Nothing at all wrong with taking the time to do it the way it used to be...the right way ? I'm sure electricity down on the tobacco plantation is as much a luxury as time is . More hands on than mechanized and with a whole villages economics revolving around tobacco . They keep what little money there is flowing locally.
I really like CAO a lot. Its been well over a year since I have purchased a cigar . Sounds though like I may need to seek out this CAO Pilon.
 

chillardbee

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I don't think you'd see much difference between the round pile or rectangular other than the shape of the pile. The colour and taste would be the same or barely discernable. But if floor space is at a premium for stacking pilons, then you'd want something that like a rectangle that can be made longer and have easier access between the piles. just my thought anyway.
 

deluxestogie

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Looks to me they just went back to the old fashioned way... Nothing at all wrong with taking the time to do it the way it used to be...the right way ?
We used to shit in the woods, and wipe our butts with leaves. As an experienced backpacker, I can attest that there's nothing wrong with that.

Keep in mind that the pile method of fermentation was developed before electricity was available. Today, where labor is cheap and energy is expensive, it only makes sense to tout pile fermenting as a "feature" of a cigar.

I agree with Knucklehead on this one.

For the small crop grower, it takes at least a bale size (say 50 pounds) to reliably get spontaneous heating in a "pile." My unsuccessful attempt, using 8 pounds of tobacco in a well insulated box demonstrates, at the least, that pile fermenting is not an easy solution for fermentation if you aren't willing to commit a whole lot of tobacco to it.

Bob
 

FmGrowit

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Kinda makes you wonder what their cigars tasted like before they started fermenting their tobacco.

My guess is they just bought properly fermented tobacco and just never knew it was part of the curing process,
 

kullas

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Sounds like they should have joined FTT and learned a thing or 2
 

rustycase

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I did go over to their site... put in some age I'd rather be, too!
That sure is a nice looking little tower of leaf them fellows got there.
...I dunno how they are gonna get much of a temp rise from that narrow of a column...
Maybe cover the whole thing with heavy blankets or something like that?
rc
 

Smokin Harley

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well now, I'm not sure how the whole part about shitting in the woods came out of this but lets go back to another plant crop closely related to the tobacco plant ...which is the tomato. Take a tomato plant and do all sorts of industrial /commercial gimmickry and mechanical farming and see what you get, a million "hot house" tomatoes that look perfect so they are more marketable, they aren't even a real red , more like a rosy orangy red, they feel firm like a tennis ball ,taste is very weak and no juice at all...
Take a dozen plants and put it in an old fashioned "Victory" garden setting and do the old fashioned way -hand dig ,weeding , fertilize and water, you watch it grow all summer and what do you get- a small basket of fruit that is a bit lopsided ,might even have a bug spot or water drop residue or sunscald on it but it tastes sweet and acidic simultaneously ,its juicy, and red- Just like a tomato should be.
Maybe I'm not seeing the same picture you guys are . Maybe the Pilon is just a sales gimmick . I'm hoping its for real and somebody actually took the time to do it how their grandfathers did it and got a better end product even though maybe it cost them volume.
Tradition.
Quality over quantity. Something like those combined.
I know I'd rather drink a couple higher end micro brew beers and enjoy the taste experience unfold than guzzle through a case of (fill in with your own personal cheap beer brand swill) to get drunk fast and have a headache later. Life is short boys, don't skimp when it comes to luxury items.

In my family we have a recipe some of you guys may have never heard of - it's called potato sausage or in the old country's (Slovakia) language, "droby" . Ground red potatoes, pork butt and bacon ,onion, garlic and a little marjoram and salt and pepper... all stuffed into a hog casing and cooked . I'm sure it could be commercially made but I've never seen it . We make it the same way my great grandfather did it when they came over. We've tried doing it different to save money or my cousin made it heart healthy but the old traditional taste just wasn't there. So , we went back to the original recipe, the way it was supposed to be made. The first taste is heavenly since we only make it a couple or few times a year. Its also a cardiologists dream.
Its about tradition.
 

Planter

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That's a pretty pilon. It does seem relatively small, providing few insulation, and a lot of ventilation. We have discussed these things in Deluxestogie's "Fermentation Box Fiasco" thread; I would guess it does not get very hot. (In comparison, the Toscano factory uses 500kg of very wet tobacco in insulated boxes to promote self-heating.)


CAO talks about a "slow, 18-month long fermentation technique". I recall for Orientals in Greece "fermentation may last some months, but the temperature of the tobacco is not allowed to exceed 32 degrees Celsius"


Enzyme activity is supposed to peak in this temperature range according to some reports I mentioned in the other thread, while volatile aromatic compounds would be better preserved.


Taking that into account, the Nicaraguan climate should naturally provide optimum conditions (around 30 degrees Celsius plus high humidity) for most of the 18 months fermentation cycle. Ventilation (notice the careful arrangement of the hands making for large gaps) must here be more important than insulation.


I believe in a more Northern climate this method would not work well.
When I have 30 degrees Celsius, tobacco tends to dry out quickly, if humidity is high, temperature tends to be low. Only a few days a year all of it comes together. Difficult to rely on.
 

Smokin Buffalo

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The only thing I could see that the round pile or even rectangle pile of tobacco could be different would be pressure. Maybe the pressure of the tobacco on top of the leaves help in some way where electricity cannot duplicate that. Like making a diamond, you need heat and pressure not just heat. If the round pile of tobacco distributes the pressure better then the rectangle, then I could see an advantage. But this is just me reasoning in my mind, I have no experience with growing or aging tobacco. As much as I would like to and may start next year.
 

deluxestogie

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The case of good old tomatoes vs. new ones is valid, but not related to methodology. The genetic transition from heirloom varieties to commercial varieties actively selected for production, synchronization of maturity and transport durability over flavor. So that's really a genetic story. Of course, with any variety of tomato--new or heirloom, picking it from the vine when it's perfectly ripened provides a much more flavorful tomato than if it is picked green-almost-ripe, and later ripened in an ethylene chamber.

With regard to pressure within a pile of tobacco, resulting from the size of the pile, the only significant measurement is the weight of a 1" x 1" column of tobacco that is the height of the pile. This gives you the psi (pounds per square inch) exerted on tobacco at the bottom of the pile. This can be estimated, and duplicated by simply placing an appropriate weight onto a smaller pile. The width (or diameter) of a pile of tobacco does not increase the pressure, but does increase the thermal insulation for the center of the pile. Commercially, all piles are frequently taken down and rebuilt so that the leaf from the outside is moved to the inside; leaf from the top is moved to the bottom.

Air spaces within a pile would seem to increase the probability of mold.

My take on the origin of the pile is that it is an offshoot of having an abundant supply of harvested leaf. Originally (I imagine), someone noticed that tobacco that had been sitting around longer was nicer than tobacco that was not as old. And tobacco sitting around in a heap was sometimes better than the same-aged tobacco that was just hanging--the bigger the heap, the better--unless is spoiled.

We know that some methods were purely accidental. Tobacco firmly pressed into hogsheads, then shipped to Europe by sailing ship in a month(s) long voyage, seems to have been the origin of Cavendish.

This is certainly an area for a lot of speculation. My point is that traditional methods may give the results you want (shitting in the woods, then wiping your butt with leaves), but they may not be the most effective or efficient method to achieve those desired results.

Bob
 

Smokin Harley

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"(shitting in the woods, then wiping your butt with leaves),"

I think I have a better understanding where the term "mud lugs" comes from now.
Bob, your manipulation of the English language to make a point or two just amuses me...but I get it .

 

Knucklehead

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"(shitting in the woods, then wiping your butt with leaves),"

I think I have a better understanding where the term "mud lugs" comes from now.
Bob, your manipulation of the English language to make a point or two just amuses me...but I get it .


Make sure to google poison oak and poison ivy before trying this at home kids. hot[1].gif
 

webmost

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I'm imagining a pilon crew working all day in a tropical shed jammed cheek by jowl with ton after ton of piled leaf under supervision of a pilon master who's been doing it 35 years and learned at the foot of the master. One more thing impossible to duplicate at home.

But I haven't smoked a thing in a week and a half, and started bleeding again this morning, so I'm probably just dizzy. Phew.

I need a cigar.
 

webmost

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At least we know that their bare hands and bare feet are kept immaculate. Maybe this is the origin of wiping with leaves.

Bob

"Tastes like leather, spice, and cocoa, with notes of chili pepper and tortilla."

Remember Otzi? Neolithic fellow found frozen in the Alps along with his fascinating stuff. A research team wasted months trying to determine the medicinal and nutritional properties of all the baffling varieties of moss he had stashed in his pouch. Couldn't make heads nor tails of it all. Seemed like Otzi just grabbed a handful of every kinda moss he laid eyes on, regardless. Finally, some grad student suggested: "Well, we know he had worms, right? So he must have had the runs, right? Well, so they didn't have toilet paper back then, right?" The light went on, the young fellow got an internship, the mossy mystery was solved.

Can you smoke moss?
 
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