Buy Tobacco Leaf Online | Whole Leaf Tobacco

Pressure Canner Cavendish v2.0

ArizonaDave

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 23, 2014
Messages
2,228
Points
83
Location
Phoenix, AZ (east valley)
I'm still zeroing in on the right parameters.

My first attempt was 4 hours and amazing.
Second attempt, 4 hours, packed too tightly is too acidic and has bad tongue bite.
Third attempt 5 hours is less flavourful, but darker and difficult to burn.
Baking soda is darker, even less flavourful, and even more difficult to burn
Red flue cured was better on the 5 hour experiment than the Bright. The homegrown was the best of the lot this time.

Hmm, sounds like not overpacking the leaf might be the ticket.
 

ChinaVoodoo

Moderator
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
7,163
Points
113
Location
Edmonton, AB, CA
Hmm, sounds like not overpacking the leaf might be the ticket.

To be precise, I layed all the leaves on top of eachother, flat and rolled it up so the entire roll fit in snugly in one "piece". Same weight of leaf, just less surface area. The scrunched up randomly method seems to chemically react faster in the process.
 

DanielP

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
11
Points
0
I'm doing my third batch of cavendish in the pressure canner. Here are some photos.

I destemmed the leaves.
View attachment 17536

I packed 50g of it into a 250mL jar and added 65g water, then pressed it by hand to ensure absorption.
View attachment 17537

As you can see, almost all of the water was absorbed.
View attachment 17538

The jar of homegrown seemed more moist. I believe this is because the leaf is thinner than the tobacco from WLT.
View attachment 17539

The water level in the canner is about 2/3 of the way up the jars.
View attachment 17540

With the 15lb weight on the canner, it's running at just under 14lbs of pressure.
View attachment 17541

Here are my notes.
View attachment 17542

My next post will demonstrate the results.


Hello peeps. As a tobacco experiment as a common hobby of mine for the last whole yead, i`d like to join that interesting Black Cavendish boys club :)

VooDoo, can you please clearify the idea of using the sealed jars inside the pressure cooker.
I mean, i do understand, the GENERAL idea is to keep "oils" of the tobacco leaf to "stay" inside the jar\leaf while making the Cavendish. Thats obvious.

What i dont understand is. Basically you dont "steam" the leafs with the steam which comes from "inside" the pressure cooker.
Basically u use the pressure cooker to raise the temp\pressure inside the cooker, and then, (since your jars are tight closed) there are second layer of pressure\steam "appears" inside the jars. Is my understanding is correct?

So the steam (is there any?) and pressure inside the jars itself created by the heating from outside by the pressure cooker.
=============

This is more of a theoretical (and basic physics school) question... is the amount of the steam & pressure is the same both inside the pressure cooker and the "inside the jars which are sealed inside the pressure cooker" ARE THE SAME?

Well the temp is the same for sure. But im not so sure about the steam (amount of steam?).
Im just trying to understand the idea why to close the lids of the jars?
To not to let the "oils" evaporate? But as i understand (i didnt have used a pressure cooker in my life. Need to buy in tomorrow) the "oils" will escape from the jar.. to the pressure cooker. But thats pretty much it. Its also almost sealed structure. So why the lids?


PS. So far as my experiment (2 weeks ago... an i ruined it) goes.... i use the "steamer". And the result was all the same, with tangy arome at the first 2 hours of steaming, and sweet alike aroma closer to the 6 hours. BUT. The tobacco didnt turn jet black. It became just brown. Like a traditional Burley leafs i`d say.

I will definitely buy a pressure cooker and will join that thread with samples & notes.

But for now i still dont clearly understand "WHY NOT BLACK after 6 hours?" (in steamer.
And... "WHY USE THE LIDS?" on the jars.

Thanks))
 

DanielP

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
11
Points
0
I'd be curious if someone were to try it at 5 or 10 pounds. There are so many variables I don't have the time to attempt.

Well. I can put (and probably will) put my hangs on the 50L heavy-duty pressure cooker somewhere in next 2 weeks. Where i can load any reasonable amount\size jars.
So ofc i will put the results.

But that we not happen tomorrow)
 

ChinaVoodoo

Moderator
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
7,163
Points
113
Location
Edmonton, AB, CA
All water inside a pressure cooker boils at the same temperature, whether in a jar or not.

The sealed jars has several reasons. The primary one is to prevent leaching. Previous attempts at steaming leaf resulted in black liquid in the bottom of the pot. The goal is to contain maximum flavor and sugar content. Since sugar is the most soluble component of tobacco, sealed jars help to retain it.

Secondly, there will be steam in the jar because the tobacco is just past water saturation, and there is room for it to go into vapour. Theoretically sealed jars with a known water content and a stove at the same set point, under the same pressure will result in the same amount energy in the steam from batch to batch making it easy to duplicate. This is because although steam will be of the same temperature as the water, the amount of steam, ie the boil rate, is representative of the amount of energy which will be imparted to the tobacco.

Third, the goal was to promote the maillard reaction which involves a diverse group of reactions between proteins and carbohydrates. If there is leeching, there will be less protein and carbohydrate to react and the tobacco won't darken as much or as quickly.
 

DanielP

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
11
Points
0
A little update about the "steamer" version.

A)For those who have no steamer under hands, but do have a simple strainer... you can just do this:

IMG_20160127_171528.jpg


B)And again, for those who use steamer.
It seems like arranging the leafs in a "donnut" style which allow the steam goes throght the center of the batch, kinda speedsup the darkening.
Well. No magic here ofc. Its just allow more temp\steam hit more area of the leafs.

IMG_20160127_171550.jpg

Just a tip.
 

Jitterbugdude

Moderator
Founding Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
4,266
Points
113
Location
Northeast Maryland
I think the higher the temp the better the results. The Maillard Reaction is driven by moisture and temperature.

The results from my latest at 1 hr:

Excellent! None of the tobacco turned black, just a dark brown. It is definitely a different taste than at 4 hrs. I'd say that if anyone is going to do this they should try 1 hr through about 6 hrs and then decide on which length of time gives you the tobacco you like.
 

DanielP

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
11
Points
0
Btw, recalling my very first "steamer" tryout, im pretty much sure that the reason why peole ends-up with "dark black" colored water is simple.

Its happening when the boiling water splashes\bubbles and "touches" the lower base of the "strainer" where the tobacco leafs are.
I had the same results for the first 2 try.

As soon as i raise the "strainer" part 4cm above the water level everything is fine.
For example right as this moment i run a test. 5 hours in the steamer (the photos above was made a few mins ago!) and my water (altho i add more water from time to time) is pretty much transparent!
--------------

So the water turns black if bubles splashes and touch the lover leafs. I can advocate for this for sure.


However, it doesnt mean that the "steamer is same as good as the pressure cooker\w jars.
It`s not.

I guess here we just have two types of leaching.

a)If the water touches the leaf (its a big NO NO!) its almost instantly washes the leaf. And turns black.
b)However. Even if we raise the "strainer" in the steamer, there are still enormous ammount of acids, oils, etc leave the tobacco and evaporate with air.
(*which apparently leads to an effect when leafs cant turn completely black. As i believe there is not enough acids\sugars left to finish the maillard reaction).


To go for the "lighter" version of Cavendish (via steamer) or to go to the "jet black" version full of oils (with sealed jars)... i believe there is no right or wrong paths.
it all depends on the desired outcome.

PS: The "steamed" version ( i believe!... i dont have 100 tests yet) should contain less flavor (of the tobacco)\nicotine. However (i can assume) it can be artificially flavored more easy (compared to the "closed jars" version).


my 2 cents.
 

DanielP

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
11
Points
0
VooDoo. Just a quick question.

When you use the pressure cooker\sealed jars method for 4\5 hours.
Does it require to add some water in the process?

Im just wondering. I guess not? So that make the whole process way way much easier i assume.
And one more question.

And one more question. On the your photo where you put the jars inside the cooker... there are "double floor" with big holes.
As i understand this is the standard feature of the pressure cookers? So that the "stuff" inside (whenever its a meat of tobacco jars) doesnt touches the water.
Am i correct here?

Because when i google "pressure cooker" it seems like some of them doesnt have that "elevated" floor... and they looks just like a standart pot.
Just with the pressurized\sealed cover.

Are we looking for some particular types of pressure cooker? Can you photo the one you use?

Dan
 

ChinaVoodoo

Moderator
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
7,163
Points
113
Location
Edmonton, AB, CA
Btw, recalling my very first "steamer" tryout, im pretty much sure that the reason why peole ends-up with "dark black" colored water is simple.

Its happening when the boiling water splashes\bubbles and "touches" the lower base of the "strainer" where the tobacco leafs are.
I had the same results for the first 2 try.

As soon as i raise the "strainer" part 4cm above the water level everything is fine.
For example right as this moment i run a test. 5 hours in the steamer (the photos above was made a few mins ago!) and my water (altho i add more water from time to time) is pretty much transparent!
--------------

So the water turns black if bubles splashes and touch the lover leafs. I can advocate for this for sure.


However, it doesnt mean that the "steamer is same as good as the pressure cooker\w jars.
It`s not.

I guess here we just have two types of leaching.

a)If the water touches the leaf (its a big NO NO!) its almost instantly washes the leaf. And turns black.
b)However. Even if we raise the "strainer" in the steamer, there are still enormous ammount of acids, oils, etc leave the tobacco and evaporate with air.
(*which apparently leads to an effect when leafs cant turn completely black. As i believe there is not enough acids\sugars left to finish the maillard reaction).


To go for the "lighter" version of Cavendish (via steamer) or to go to the "jet black" version full of oils (with sealed jars)... i believe there is no right or wrong paths.
it all depends on the desired outcome.

PS: The "steamed" version ( i believe!... i dont have 100 tests yet) should contain less flavor (of the tobacco)\nicotine. However (i can assume) it can be artificially flavored more easy (compared to the "closed jars" version).


my 2 cents.

Thank you for your input Daniel. Another member, deluxestogie also had his steamer method down pat, where he wasn't losing much to leaching. His cavendish looked really good. I found that my attempts were losing, not because of splashing from below, but from condensation dropping from above. One pot had a flat lid, so i couldn't control the dripping. The crockpot had a curved lid, but the tobacco was so close to it that it wasn't any better.

I do recall however, that although really dark, he mostly used it as a blending component to reduce the strength of a blend. This stuff Jitterbugdude and i are making is a different animal. It has more flavour and retains so much sugar, and i would argue, sometimes results in tobacco more sweet than what went in. In fact, I haven't flavoured it, but it should be a superior tobacco for flavoring because if made with flue cured tobacco, the only thing you need to add is the flavour. No sweetener would be needed.
 

ChinaVoodoo

Moderator
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
7,163
Points
113
Location
Edmonton, AB, CA
VooDoo. Just a quick question.

When you use the pressure cooker\sealed jars method for 4\5 hours.
Does it require to add some water in the process?

Im just wondering. I guess not? So that make the whole process way way much easier i assume.
And one more question.

And one more question. On the your photo where you put the jars inside the cooker... there are "double floor" with big holes.
As i understand this is the standard feature of the pressure cookers? So that the "stuff" inside (whenever its a meat of tobacco jars) doesnt touches the water.
Am i correct here?

Because when i google "pressure cooker" it seems like some of them doesnt have that "elevated" floor... and they looks just like a standart pot.
Just with the pressurized\sealed cover.

Are we looking for some particular types of pressure cooker? Can you photo the one you use?

Dan

Your second question. There are pressure cookers and pressure canners. The essential difference is the size. Canning you use the double floor, which is removable so the jars don't conduct heat out of the aluminum and possibly break. I own the "All American Canner". It's expensive, but really good and will last several lifetimes.

I can food with it, and also cook with it. Last week I cooked an entire chopped cabbage with a 5lb bone in ham on top. I also made stock out of beef bones, then after straining, filled jars and canned it. After 3 hours, I could break the beef ribs into bits with two fingers. I don't use the double floor when I cook. You retain more flavour with it because it's virtually sealed and little flavour steams out. You also get the maillard reaction on non acidic foods because of the higher temperatures. Squash becomes dessert. Cabbage turns into an incredible thing that can't be described.

I have a smaller pressure cooker as well. It is great for doing beans and lentils. You can pressure cook white beans that weren't even pre soaked for 45minutes and they'll be soft. I love that thing.

Your first question about water. If the lid is sealed well and the boil rate is adjusted to prevent excessive steam venting, there is very little water loss over 4/5 hours. This last run, I had a small leak because I didn't quite have the lid seated properly, and after 5 hours about half the water was gone.
 

Gavroche

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 2, 2016
Messages
1,072
Points
0
Location
Ile de France France
Merci la Chine
La seconde est un stérilisateur avec de la confiture ou de garder (préserver)
Le premier est appelé un autocuiseur en français "cocotte-minute" car il cuire très rapidement
Thank you China
The second is a sterilizer with some jam or to keep(guard) (to protect)
The first one is called a pressure cooker in French "cocotte minute" because he(it) to cook very quickly
 

DanielP

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
11
Points
0
Yep. Thanks for the link for ALL AMERICAN. I actually was able to google it down (by the look of the gauge).
Those are one though looling piece of machinery.

Which size do you u have now?

Im curious. If u had such a monster, what was you question is about, when u ask *if someone can try the pounders size. I don't have time to try everything*.
 

ChinaVoodoo

Moderator
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
7,163
Points
113
Location
Edmonton, AB, CA
Yep. Thanks for the link for ALL AMERICAN. I actually was able to google it down (by the look of the gauge).
Those are one though looling piece of machinery.

Which size do you u have now?

Im curious. If u had such a monster, what was you question is about, when u ask *if someone can try the pounders size. I don't have time to try everything*.

I have model 915.

I was referring to the pressure. You can run it at 5, 10, or 15lbs of pressure. I've been running it at 15lbs. Although, I'm also curious what 5 hours at 10lbs of pressure is like, I'd also like to try 3.5 hours at 15lbs. I'd also like to play around with water content in the jars like Jitterbugdude has been. There are plenty of combinations to try.
 

DanielP

Member
Joined
Jan 26, 2016
Messages
11
Points
0
By the way. I know its more of an off-topic.
But i thought that someone might find that info interesting.

We all know that internet is kinda lacking the "true history of Cavendish (person), his voyage, and the way how he discover the "black cavendish". ok.

And also most of the articles on the net simply re-tell us the story about "blah blah blah... mr.Cavendish sailed back and forward from the new world to the old one, and one time he put the rum over the tobacco in the kettle and voila.... here comes the Cavendish tobacco". Period.

And ofc i hear a lot of people on the forums across the globe was concerned about the fact that "its kinda weird that the sailors\captain decided to waste the rum by spraying the tobacco with it".
-------------------------------

Well. This is more then a reasonable concern by my taste as well.


And finnaly yesterday, in the PDF photoprint of some very old book from a Russian library i found quite a different (and by my taste waaaaay more believable) explanation of "how did that happened"!

According to that book.

Cavendish bring the ships full of rum to the new world. The rum was ofc in the barrels.
The barrels however was quite expensive to make (for each trip again and again).
So the (empty barrels) was always traveling back across the ocean to be refilled with rum for the next voyage again.

And ofc they took a lot of space in the ship.

So the tobacco WAESNT sprinkled with the rum on a way back. Nop.
He sail to point A. He sold the rhum to the locals. He left the barrels to himself.

And according to the book, the tobacco was just pressed in the used (empty!) barrels after the rum.
And ofc, the barrels was empty, but still full of "smell\fumes" of rum & _sugar_ leftovers on the bottom\sides of the barrels.

Tobacco was pressed inside hardly to save the space.

Voila. Tobacco fermented with fumes\sugars of the rum for a good 50+ days of voyage.
And nop. Nobody spayed tobacco with "personal storage of rum during voyage".
-----------------

Just decided to share the info.
Sorry for the offtopic.

Daniel.
 

ChinaVoodoo

Moderator
Joined
Sep 1, 2014
Messages
7,163
Points
113
Location
Edmonton, AB, CA
3 hour 15lb cavendish. Don's Red flue cured Virginia is great. It's a deep red colour, sweet, and has very little tongue bite. Much better than the 5hour version.
In this batch I did a red FCV, a red FCV with Amrut old Port rum instead of water, two lemon FCV jars, one dried in the oven at 170F, and one in the kiln at 125F to see if there is a difference (I don't know yet), and a lemon FCV with natural cherry flavour concentrate from the brew store instead of water.
 

ProfessorPangloss

Amateur Kentuckian
Joined
Dec 18, 2014
Messages
486
Points
28
Location
The Bluegrass
3 hour 15lb cavendish. Don's Red flue cured Virginia is great. It's a deep red colour, sweet, and has very little tongue bite. Much better than the 5hour version.
In this batch I did a red FCV, a red FCV with Amrut old Port rum instead of water, two lemon FCV jars, one dried in the oven at 170F, and one in the kiln at 125F to see if there is a difference (I don't know yet), and a lemon FCV with natural cherry flavour concentrate from the brew store instead of water.

In this case, you're cavendish-ifying flue cured leaf? How do you predict it will be different from leaf that has just been color cured?
 
Top