John do you find there is a lot of variation in the nicotine levels when you make these? Do you make any attempt at blending the leaf to get a more consistent product? I really love this concept, but I've only tried with a few of the lower leaves of 1 cornplanter rustica, I'm afraid when it comes time to roll the big leaves of the gc1 I might only be able to use 1 or 2 leaves in a manageable size.
Swedish style rustica twist chew
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squeezyjohn
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There is definitely some variation that comes from leaf position and ripeness with the types of rustica I have used, but the change in nicotine levels isn't nearly as pronounced between leaf positions as it is with N.Tabacum plants as far as I can tell. However there is a really big difference in the nicotine levels between different varieties of rustica - especially the large leaved versions I've experimented with.
My "1000 year old tobacco" strain has leaves similar in size to the GC 1 and you're correct you only really need 3 or 4 half-leaves to make a small twist. I do try and match the leaves up to some extent when rolling the twists - it isn't exactly scientific, but I tear off a small scrap and nibble it with my front teeth and that should be enough to feel how much nicotine is there (weak, medium or strong) and pair the leaves up accordingly.
I love this concept too, it really makes far more sense to me as a snus user than weaker sweet chewing tobacco that will rot your teeth, make you spit and require a huge amount in your cheek at once to take effect! In the snus world we have the loose variety which is frankly messy if out and about in public, and we have the portions (little tea bags of snus) which are really convenient, however making your own snus and stuffing it in to pre-formed pouches and heat sealing is not a viable option for the home maker time-wise. So I thought of this as a third way to get a similarly shaped piece of tobacco that would not fall apart, that could fit in the top lip and so be relatively spitless, and would have the strength to replicate the nicotine delivery of snus. This could only be achieved using the strongest possible tobacco as it is not possible to cook and treat twists with an alkali without them completely falling apart (and I really have tried!).
Because this isn't really a traditional product, there's very little documentation to go on and still much experimentation to do. But I feel like I'm getting there - and in the meantime it's really opening my eyes to the natural flavours and other characteristics contained within rustica types. It's absolutely great that there are other people out there trying it and giving me feed back too. I feel I have settled on my perfect strain of rustica of which I have a large harvest to play with this year that's already hanging in the shed ... so I will be experimenting with flavourings sauces and the such like this year to see if I can get some more interesting things going on.
It can't cure quick enough - I've only got one jar of last-year's twists left as you can see below if you twist your neck to one side (not sure why that happened!)
My "1000 year old tobacco" strain has leaves similar in size to the GC 1 and you're correct you only really need 3 or 4 half-leaves to make a small twist. I do try and match the leaves up to some extent when rolling the twists - it isn't exactly scientific, but I tear off a small scrap and nibble it with my front teeth and that should be enough to feel how much nicotine is there (weak, medium or strong) and pair the leaves up accordingly.
I love this concept too, it really makes far more sense to me as a snus user than weaker sweet chewing tobacco that will rot your teeth, make you spit and require a huge amount in your cheek at once to take effect! In the snus world we have the loose variety which is frankly messy if out and about in public, and we have the portions (little tea bags of snus) which are really convenient, however making your own snus and stuffing it in to pre-formed pouches and heat sealing is not a viable option for the home maker time-wise. So I thought of this as a third way to get a similarly shaped piece of tobacco that would not fall apart, that could fit in the top lip and so be relatively spitless, and would have the strength to replicate the nicotine delivery of snus. This could only be achieved using the strongest possible tobacco as it is not possible to cook and treat twists with an alkali without them completely falling apart (and I really have tried!).
Because this isn't really a traditional product, there's very little documentation to go on and still much experimentation to do. But I feel like I'm getting there - and in the meantime it's really opening my eyes to the natural flavours and other characteristics contained within rustica types. It's absolutely great that there are other people out there trying it and giving me feed back too. I feel I have settled on my perfect strain of rustica of which I have a large harvest to play with this year that's already hanging in the shed ... so I will be experimenting with flavourings sauces and the such like this year to see if I can get some more interesting things going on.
It can't cure quick enough - I've only got one jar of last-year's twists left as you can see below if you twist your neck to one side (not sure why that happened!)
That jar looks wonderful, great color on the leaf.
I found the single greatest flavoring addition to be the ammonium carbonate. In my snuff endeavors I found almost subliminal amounts of various flavorings to be the best. I have a mixture of cherry, bergamot, vanilla, almond and anise in a bourbon base to be really good. Seems like a lot of different things but the amount is so tiny you can't taste them all but you do notice of absent. I want to add attar of rose at some point. Nothing original just trying to recreate the popular snuff flavors. I have a document from a competitor that had a lab with mass spectrometer analyze Skoal and Copenhagen for ingredients, everything is trace amounts so user can't taste any single ingredient. I'm attaching a PDF for you, don't know how else to share it so I renamed it to a picture format, if this works just download as picture and rename to PDF.
Damn, that didn't work, if you pm me your email I will send it if you're interested
I found the single greatest flavoring addition to be the ammonium carbonate. In my snuff endeavors I found almost subliminal amounts of various flavorings to be the best. I have a mixture of cherry, bergamot, vanilla, almond and anise in a bourbon base to be really good. Seems like a lot of different things but the amount is so tiny you can't taste them all but you do notice of absent. I want to add attar of rose at some point. Nothing original just trying to recreate the popular snuff flavors. I have a document from a competitor that had a lab with mass spectrometer analyze Skoal and Copenhagen for ingredients, everything is trace amounts so user can't taste any single ingredient. I'm attaching a PDF for you, don't know how else to share it so I renamed it to a picture format, if this works just download as picture and rename to PDF.
Damn, that didn't work, if you pm me your email I will send it if you're interested
Here is an experiment, I took my standard sauce listed above, added salmiak and mixed it in, then a bit of lime and shook it up real good. I used lime because it doesn't ever seem to go in to solution and will get deposited evenly over the leaf to raise ph in the mouth later. I poured it over crispy sun dried leaf, just enough to bring it into medium case, placed it in a zip lock.
I took the hydrated leaf and deribbed it placing all leaf in the same orientation ran it leaf by leaf through my cigar roller that had been adjusted to a tiny diameter.
I rolled leaf after leaf in the same orientation like I was putting a binder on a cigar but it had no filler, it is pure tightly wrapped binder. The resulting cigar shape was incredibly dense, then I wrapped it extremely tight in thin nylon rope to make a carrotte. I will let it sit until it's dried down some, maybe a week, and then cut some coins off it.
This is using sun dried cornplanter. I'll update next week.
I do this for pipe tobacco, and the cigar that it makes fuses all the tobacco under the heavy pressure, so much so it's a little hard to rub the coins out. I'm hoping this holds together in the mouth well. I used 12 half leaves, the best middles from the plant.
I took the hydrated leaf and deribbed it placing all leaf in the same orientation ran it leaf by leaf through my cigar roller that had been adjusted to a tiny diameter.
I rolled leaf after leaf in the same orientation like I was putting a binder on a cigar but it had no filler, it is pure tightly wrapped binder. The resulting cigar shape was incredibly dense, then I wrapped it extremely tight in thin nylon rope to make a carrotte. I will let it sit until it's dried down some, maybe a week, and then cut some coins off it.
This is using sun dried cornplanter. I'll update next week.
I do this for pipe tobacco, and the cigar that it makes fuses all the tobacco under the heavy pressure, so much so it's a little hard to rub the coins out. I'm hoping this holds together in the mouth well. I used 12 half leaves, the best middles from the plant.
squeezyjohn
Well-Known Member
That sounds very much like the method I use to roll the twists although I don't have a cigar roller machine thingy - that's pretty much all the twists are but I don't wrap them up, relying on the outer leaves to bind the middle. Then I keep on twisting both ends in opposite directions and it gets so much torsion in it that it automatically forms the twist shapes and I just use a small bit of wire to hold the ends of the twist together.
Interesting that you use lime in your mixture ... I keep thinking about adding an alkali - but frankly the little bites of rustica are stronger than any snus I use and I don't think extra strength would be very pleasant! Any additives in my sauce are now purely for taste and tend to be liquorice root boiled down or xylitol for sweetness, salmiak and salt for saltiness, and further flavouring compounds that dissolve in water. If I want the taste of essential oils or whole spices like cinnamon, coffee beans, cloves I seal those in a jar with some of the twists and the flavours mingle in a nice subtle way. The old American trick of storing with a semi dried apple or other fruit really works in the same way using a sealed jar - but you have to keep an eye on the fruit and remove it at the first sign of mould as they add a lot of moisture to the equation unlike spices.
Interesting that you use lime in your mixture ... I keep thinking about adding an alkali - but frankly the little bites of rustica are stronger than any snus I use and I don't think extra strength would be very pleasant! Any additives in my sauce are now purely for taste and tend to be liquorice root boiled down or xylitol for sweetness, salmiak and salt for saltiness, and further flavouring compounds that dissolve in water. If I want the taste of essential oils or whole spices like cinnamon, coffee beans, cloves I seal those in a jar with some of the twists and the flavours mingle in a nice subtle way. The old American trick of storing with a semi dried apple or other fruit really works in the same way using a sealed jar - but you have to keep an eye on the fruit and remove it at the first sign of mould as they add a lot of moisture to the equation unlike spices.
So this review is for the dark air.
I took 1 leaf misted with ammonium carbonate mixed with the cherry flavor and splenda, a very dilute version. Rolled it up very tight, wrapped in rope for a couple days. Unwrapped it was hard and dense, about a 35 ring gauge cigar. Cut it into 1/8th" or so coins. It's like a hard candy. Not sweet but bitter was tamed, with a very slight scent of cherry. I'm holding it in the bottom cheek off on the side where a chew would normally go. The thing is do tight it doesn't fall apart, and no hiccups since it's so tight it isn't releasing fast. Cravings noticeably dropped in maybe 10 or 15 minutes. It's been in an hour now and is getting vaguely overpowering. I'm at work in a dirty environment and don't want to try to save it, but don't really want to spit it out either. Dilemmas.
Yeah I'm gonna take it out, yikes, it is like a slow building force of nature. Not a sick feeling but I'm starting to sweat in my scalp a little bit. Nicotine craving at 0 get it out!
Good stuff. No alkali added but for the ammonium carb and that is very mild, not enough to move it very far from where it started I'm sure. It's all saliva freeing it up.
I took 1 leaf misted with ammonium carbonate mixed with the cherry flavor and splenda, a very dilute version. Rolled it up very tight, wrapped in rope for a couple days. Unwrapped it was hard and dense, about a 35 ring gauge cigar. Cut it into 1/8th" or so coins. It's like a hard candy. Not sweet but bitter was tamed, with a very slight scent of cherry. I'm holding it in the bottom cheek off on the side where a chew would normally go. The thing is do tight it doesn't fall apart, and no hiccups since it's so tight it isn't releasing fast. Cravings noticeably dropped in maybe 10 or 15 minutes. It's been in an hour now and is getting vaguely overpowering. I'm at work in a dirty environment and don't want to try to save it, but don't really want to spit it out either. Dilemmas.
Yeah I'm gonna take it out, yikes, it is like a slow building force of nature. Not a sick feeling but I'm starting to sweat in my scalp a little bit. Nicotine craving at 0 get it out!
Good stuff. No alkali added but for the ammonium carb and that is very mild, not enough to move it very far from where it started I'm sure. It's all saliva freeing it up.
It's better than any snus. It's probably what Oliver twist was doing, but I've never tried it, from the pictures I'd guess they are a fraction of the size of my tiny coin that I used.
Wow, I'd say my tolerance is pretty high too, I'd love to see a non tobacco user try to keep that coin in for over an hour like I did hehe. Now it's out I'm going to time how long before I want to put it back in, and I'm going to use the same one. Likely only try that once, I'm guessing it'll sate for an hour or 2, in that time it'll probably be a little bacteria motel.
Wow, I'd say my tolerance is pretty high too, I'd love to see a non tobacco user try to keep that coin in for over an hour like I did hehe. Now it's out I'm going to time how long before I want to put it back in, and I'm going to use the same one. Likely only try that once, I'm guessing it'll sate for an hour or 2, in that time it'll probably be a little bacteria motel.
It was out for 2 hours before I popped it back in. Flavor was good for a few minutes but then went to being blah very quickly after that. No redeeming value imo of reusing it, unless you don't have another handy.
I want to try a snus cook next. Will do a burley and dark air and compare.
I want to try a snus cook next. Will do a burley and dark air and compare.
squeezyjohn
Well-Known Member
Oliver Twist is sickly sweet and it all tastes very strongly of liquorice and anisseed (doesn't seem to matter what flavour it says on the tin!) ... they're very small, sticky, not very strong and more sauce than tobacco! I think what we're doing here is a much better approach.
And nobody likes sloppy seconds ... even where smokeless tobacco is concerned.
And nobody likes sloppy seconds ... even where smokeless tobacco is concerned.
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