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New UK Law - HMRC licence for businesses and individuals - Tobacco Registration Scheme

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tomb

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For anyone wanting an update on UK customs, HMRC and whole leaf tobacco
It is looking like the government is pressing ahead with their proposal to introduce additional controls on raw tobacco.

From 1st October 2016 businesses and individuals importing or using raw tobacco for any purpose will have to be registered with HMRC.

This new strategy looks to stop or severely limit our ability to purchase raw tobacco as an end user.
The licenses of course will be incredibly difficult to obtain and only afforded by the 'big tobacco boys'.
After all they are trying to stop us doing what we do (they can start claiming all that 'missing' tax and duty)

There is going to be a three month window for businesses and individuals to register. On and after 1st January 2017, the penalty powers and forfeiture power will come into effect. This will be combined with enhanced seizure powers if it is determined that an individual or businesses is using raw tobacco without the proper licences.

Government page: Tobacco Duty: raw tobacco registration scheme

As far as I can make out this looks to be going ahead. Please feel free to correct me and/or discuss this further in this thread
(I posted this in a previous thread on UK customs, but I think this justifies it's own thread here)

tomb
 

SmokesAhoy

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Wherever they are losing money, look for them to be working their hardest. I'm surprised the USA hasn't started looking into this. Buy a lifetime supply now guys...
 

Jitterbugdude

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Wherever they are losing money, look for them to be working their hardest. I'm surprised the USA hasn't started looking into this. Buy a lifetime supply now guys...

I think they will eventually, but they are still fine tuning control of cigarettes, pipe tobacco and cigars. Once they have that down, they'll come after whole leaf and all the accessory's like rollers, shredders, corn cob pipes etc. Judging by how fast the FDA works I'd say we're save for at least 10 years. It's for the children you know.
 

tomb

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10 STEPS FOR GROWING TOBACCO AT HOME IN THE UK (the unofficial HMRC guide)

1. Fill out a convoluted HMRC form and purchase a 'Raw Tobacco License' so you can buy/handle/grow your seeds
2. Plant seeds
3. Grow plants (staying within agreed legal requirements, otherwise 'upgrade' your license)
4. Harvest your crop
5. Dry and cure your tobacco (do not sample any at this point or you'll be committing fraud)
6. Shred your tobacco (making sure you have an up to date tobacco shredding license)
7. Weight your tobacco (resisting temptation to smoke)
8. Immediately contact HMRC again to pay the necessary tax ('smoking tobacco tax', 'e-liquid manufacturing tax', 'snuff tax', 'any use tax')
9. Upgrade your license if you intend to sell or give any tobacco away (informing HMCR of any changes to your tobacco use)
10. Smoke, sniff and consume your tobacco product (remembering to thank HMRC for their help)


,
 

squeezyjohn

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The paper says they hope to increase revenues due to this action by 35 million pounds by 2020!!!

If they just got Google UK and Facebook UK to pay the tax they already legally and morally owe HMRC they'd make 3 times that amount straight away.
 

tomb

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The paper says they hope to increase revenues due to this action by 35 million pounds by 2020!!!

Wow! And where do they get most of there information? - from the internet!

The Nothing 2 Declare campaign seems to have back fired and HMRC are using this as more ammunition to press ahead with the proposals!

1.10 A campaign against the proposals was organised by the Nothing 2 Declare website, a site which promotes smokers rights and advises on how to import tobacco products for personal use without having them seized at the border. Many of the responses from individuals used the draft published on this website.

1.13 The majority of individuals responding used a standard response from the Nothing 2 Declare website and were opposed to any of the proposals, arguing that raw tobacco is an agricultural product (i.e.not subject to duty or additional controls) and its movement within the EU should not be restricted. However, none of these respondents provided any evidence that they wished to import raw tobacco for reasons other than manufacturing their own smoking products.

1.14This is consistent with our research to date; while alternative uses have been suggested, we have no evidence of actual use of raw tobacco for non-smoking purposes. However, we will also undertake further activity to identify the extent
to which raw tobacco is put to non-smoking uses to ensure that we tailor the scheme to address these.

government webpage source:
raw-tobacco-summary-of-responses

 

tomb

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If they just got Google UK and Facebook UK to pay the tax they already legally and morally owe HMRC they'd make 3 times that amount straight away.
This put's it into perspective. It seems like the more a company or multinational earn, the less tax they pay. They shaft the little man who feels every squeeze, but the big players are hardly effected, they seem to profit from our topsy turvy capitalist system.
 

tomb

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I recently have had a reply from HMRC regarding the 'raw tobacco licences',
They assure me that "there will be no cost with regards to the approval process for raw tobacco."

HMRC reply
Thank you for your query regarding the raw tobacco approval scheme. I can confirm that there will be no cost with regards to the approval process for raw tobacco.. The detail of the scheme surrounding the application process, potential exemptions, growing, supplying and usage is still being finalized and we are looking to provide more detail around the scheme during summer 2016.

Ok that is good. I take back some of my earlier comments, it looks like the license won't cost anything.
Lets hope the approval process is not too stringent.

For further info regarding the 'raw tobacco registration process please contact:
wendy.longworth@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk and/or nicholas.hampson@hmrc.gsi.gov.uk

The correspondence address is:
HMRC,
Tobacco Policy,
Indirect Tax,
3rd Floor West,
Ralli Quays,
Manchester M60 9HL

My apologies for smothering this thread, I have been over doing it.
tomb
 

squeezyjohn

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I am really struggling to know what this means.

I did get in touch to ask about the legality and processes to stay the right side of the law when I first started growing tobacco and they replied telling me that there was no need for a license at present - but tax would be due at the full rate at the point it is made in to a taxable product. I further enquired how I should pay the tax and they said that there was no current method of collecting this tax - but even though I could not pay it I would still owe it!!! I then asked about snus as the majority of the tobacco I grow ends up made in to snus; they replied that as it is illegal to sell snus in the UK due to EU law, there was no tax code for snus and therefore I would not owe any tax. As long as I do not sell it to anyone I was clear as there are no laws against making it, possessing it, or using it. Of course this was several years ago, and may change under the new legislation.

I really hope that it will still be possible to cure my own tobacco and stay within these laws ... and if that means applying for a license, I don't have a problem with that. I may stick to the line that I'm making nasal snuff ... because nasal snuff is completely tax exempt in the UK and legal to buy, sell and own.
 

AmaxB

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At what point does bending over become painful? Just reading this makes me angry - petty laws to extort the good public. They once came to me and told me I could not smoke in my store. I told them to stick it - my building - my land - They told me they would fine me I told them see ya in court. I also told them if ya hope to enforce post a guard 24/7 I'll offer him a smoke and light up. Funny I never heard back from them. Gotta stand up for yourself or some slob will piss down your throat.
 

ArizonaDave

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tomb-- Their "true intent" is subtly revealed in their response, by referring to your business as a "Scheme". If there's ANY scheming going on, it's done by those who impose taxes, because another word for it is "Legal theft" on their part. They are the ones with a "scheme", not you!

AmaxB-- Exactly! I like your use of "Extort". Their "Scheme" is "Extortion". point taken.
 

Markw

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I am still looking into these new changes, I am not worried at the moment as this does not come into effect till the end of the year, but it is is worrying. As they have said further information will be given later in the year. The worrying thing is they are talking about classing the whole plant as a tobacco and is to be taxed including the stem, as in their document from the ground up. All they are looking at is getting more money from the public. I thimk there are still a lot of things that need to be sorted out. They could not refuse to give you a licence as this would be breaking the law.
 

squeezyjohn

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At what point does bending over become painful? Just reading this makes me angry - petty laws to extort the good public. They once came to me and told me I could not smoke in my store. I told them to stick it - my building - my land - They told me they would fine me I told them see ya in court. I also told them if ya hope to enforce post a guard 24/7 I'll offer him a smoke and light up. Funny I never heard back from them. Gotta stand up for yourself or some slob will piss down your throat.

I'm not bending over for anyone! I like paying tax - it does good things and looks after the weakest in society - and I like exercising my political side when I think that it's being spent unwisely. I agree with high taxes on smoking tobacco because it's already been very successful at cutting the number of smokers and smoking is really dreadful for health. I agree with making it illegal to smoke in public places and cars with children in them because it's evil to impose your smoke on non-smokers with the associated health risks that also carries.

I want to be able to handle whole leaf simply as a way of obtaining one of the least harmful forms of tobacco that keeps me off the smokes that sadly is illegal to sell in my country (due to a ridiculous EU law that was hastily put in to place when Skoal began marketing candy flavoured pouches directly at children over here!). Sadly the vast majority of people buying whole leaf are doing so to evade the taxes on smoking tobacco and that is why this is happening. My fear is that I will be bundled in with them despite not doing anything the law is designed to stop.
 

AmaxB

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OK .... I like wearing my hair long! These fellas over there like wearing theirs shaved to the scalp and don't like mine. They say my long hair is bad for the community if permitted over time all men will have long hair and men will be to mild, endangering the Alpha Male. So they decide to impose a tax based on tiny unites of hair length but under 2 inches will not be taxed. This is great because they can possibly stop men from growing their hair (we will now have only strong men). It also creates income that can be used to support widowed moms, no more hungry kids without dads. The public excepts this because it will feed kids and over look my right to wear my hair the way I like. Little ol me I look at this and say to myself, well I can't afford my hair, I don't want to upset these short hairs, so I'll cut my hair short. Time passes 4 years, now these baldies impose a reform and all hair on the heads of the male population becomes taxable! The good people cry a bit but say well it's just hair and the baldies don't encounter to much opposition from the masses the baldies make tons of money.
Some feeds the kids without Dads, but most goes to fund a few groups hell bent on an 8 day work week without sick leave. If not opposed the impossible 8 day work week will become a real norm and should you become sick you may be find and jailed. If you are unwilling to stand you are willing to submit! Tobacco is just a cash paying stepping stone to a bigger payday of greater power with higher yields.
There is a lot of ugly in the real world parents should be responsible for the well being of their children not the government.
 

squeezyjohn

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I'm not sure your analogy works AmaxB! At least I don't get it.

I guess it comes down to your politics which we're not really allowed to discuss here but I'll say this: The world, as you point out, is ugly, and there are many many problems to fix - and the rules of organised society fix them to some extent. Simply saying I'll do what I want, I'll lock myself away in a small community of like-minded people, I'll avoid everyone else and I only want to buy things for myself with my money and everyone else can do the same ... well - to me that sounds like a teenage mentality. I know this way of thinking is very popular in the USA at the moment, but I really prefer a grown-up solution to governance which accepts that there is a distinct line between what is commercial business and what should be collective responsibility ... thankfully the majority in the UK agree with me because we've seen the benefits. But be under no illusion that we're a socialist country ... all our fantastic systems of healthcare, education and infrastructure are being eroded year on year as the politics becomes more corrupted by business.

Anyhow - much as I think we fundamentally disagree about all that, I am definitely in agreement that this seems to be blanket legislation to make it hard for people to handle raw tobacco whether or not their intentions are to get around paying tax! And I, too, do not like that. It's the national equivalent of a lazy teacher keeping the whole class behind after school because they can't be bothered to work out who the culprits are and punish everyone instead!
 

darren1979

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I for one won't be getting no license or telling them sh1t. Why the he'll should I pay tax on something I've grown myself? What they going to do charge me tax on my tomatoes and lettuce or charge me tax on my home brew? Not for me thank you.
 

squeezyjohn

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I suspect that's what most of us will be doing Darren! But it's a different matter if we're buying in whole leaf from someone like Don ... that will really be affected.
 
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