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Nicotine, Neonicotinoids and Bees

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ProfessorPangloss

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Moved from Chillardbee's Grow Log

Since you mentioned growing tobacco near the bees, can you comment on the risks to the bees from the tobacco? I ask because I notice that Admire is a neonicotinoid, and I wonder if you use something like that, do you have to make sure the bees don't ever get into open blooms so they don't get dosed? The labeling warns that bees can be exposed to it if they contact the plants at all. I'd like to use it myself this year, but I'm really careful not to harm bees.
 
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ChinaVoodoo

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Re: Chillardbee's 2016 Size Matters Grow Log

Since you mentioned growing tobacco near the bees, can you comment on the risks to the bees from the tobacco? I ask because I notice that Admire is a neonicotinoid, and I wonder if you use something like that, do you have to make sure the bees don't ever get into open blooms so they don't get dosed? The labeling warns that bees can be exposed to it if they contact the plants at all. I'd like to use it myself this year, but I'm really careful not to harm bees.
http://m.livescience.com/8088-bees-buzz-caffeine-nicotine.html
At least one theorist believes the natural nicotine is available because it increases pollination via getting the bees addicted.
 

Alpine

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Re: Chillardbee's 2016 Size Matters Grow Log

Last year i left all my turkish plants untopped. The bees visited the flowers until harvest. Baccy flowers were the only still blooming that late. I think that the nicotine content in the pollen is nearly zero. Anyway, i had bees in my plants for more than three months. No harm at all.
Pier
 

ArizonaDave

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ProfessorPangloss

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Re: Chillardbee's 2016 Size Matters Grow Log

I guess I should narrow the scope of the question to the worry of harm from systemic insecticide. If the blooms alone killed bees, there wouldn't be a single bee left after August in Kentucky.
 

ProfessorPangloss

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I don't know how to find this information, but I wonder how much residue is left in tobacco foliage and flowers if the plants were treated systemically with imidacloprid at transplant time. Toxic doses (to bees) are measured in parts per billion, so it seems pretty obvious that spraying these chemicals will harm bees.

For most of us here who top our plants, maybe it's a non-issue because we're not leaving enough open blooms to attract that kind of bee traffic.
 

Knucklehead

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I thought Admire, BT, and Spinosad kill only the critters that actively eat the leaf? Not by conact with the beneficial insect. Is this not true of the Admire? I'm pretty sure it's true of the others, the only caveat is that the bees cannot get into the poison until after it has dried out after spraying (BT and Spinosad). Until it has dried it is toxic to bees. By spraying in the evenings as the bees go into the hives for the night, the poison will be taken in by the leaves and flowers over night and no danger to the bees after that. It all happens while the bees are sleeping.

On top of that, my patch is less than 100 yards from the bee hives and I don't remember ever seeing a honey bee in the tobacco flowers. My flower heads are either bagged just as the flowers emerge, or topped when fifty percent of that variety are showing at least one flower open. There is an extremely short window for bees to get into my tobacco flowers even if they were so inclined. My few Orientals are lefted untopped but I haven't seen bees going after them either.

The wasps and a few others critters you see in the patch are after the baby hornworms and ladybugs are after the aphids. They aren't eating the leaf either so they don't get harmed. I think the commonly accepted forum method of BT or Spinosad for hornworms, cutworms, and budworms -- and Admire or generic Admire for aphids (in the transplant water) is about as safe as it comes for us and the beneficial bees and insects.
 
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BigBonner

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I would not worry about using Admire on tobacco . Apply it one time per season and apply at the roots when transplanting , cover up with soil .It can also be applied before transplanting when the plants are a week or so from transplant time . Still only apply one time per season . Admire looses most of its strength about flowering time . If a field is left a little longer than it should be for topping the Aphids will start to appear . This tells me that the Admire is pretty much gone at the end of season . This is why at topping time farmers use Orthene mixed in with sucker control . Otethene will take care of grasshoppers , bud worms , aphids , etc . It only last a couple of weeks and the orthene is gone .

Bee farmers blame the bees dyeing off on tobacco . Everyone seems to place the blame on tobacco . But in reality Varroa mites are taking their toll on bee population .
If you notice bee's will land on anything wet . Take fresh cow pile's and you will see them on those all the time . What about the Wormer , fly ,spray , antibiotics that us farmers give our cows . Open cesspools attract bees as well .
Open beer cans , soda pop cans , fruit juices , kids candy tossed away , these all attract bees and who is to say that some preservatives in those will not kill off bees . Certain flowers are more poisonous than tobacco .
 

chillardbee

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From what I understand about neonics is that they are nicotine molecules altered or having other molucules added to it like the way benzene can have molecules added to its ring to be anything from TNT to Paradichlorobenzene and on and on. Nicotine has to be in a fairly concentrated for to impact a bee let alone a whole hive, certianly the plants won't harm the bees nor the nectar or pollen from them. I was watching the bees working the blooms on the baccy last year and found out that the pollen the bees collect are a brownish color. Know the color of pollen from various plants helps identify what the bees are working by watching what the color of pollen is that the bees are bringing into the hive.

Interestingly, when the varroa mite started to come into our valley, the bee inspectors were using tobacco leaves in the bee smokers to get the mites to fall on the sticky boards. They would give several strong puffs for about a minute into the enterance of the hive (with a sticky board already on the bottom board) and the shut the enterance up for about another minute (kind of like hot boxing a beehive) but it would cause a few mites, if there were any, to fall.
 

deluxestogie

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My August 2016 Understanding of Neonicotinoids -- are we killing bees?

I won't cite any of the hundreds of published studies on this subject. Just search scholar.google.com for "neonicotinoid bee", if you like.

Dinotefuran, imidacloprid, thiamethoxam, and clothianidin are neonicotinoid insecticides, sometimes called "neonics." Each of these is marketed under many brand names. FTT members are familiar with various brands of imidacloprid used to prevent aphid infestation.

Background
Nicotine is a neurotoxin. Some insects (as well as humans) are capable of detoxifying nicotine (chemically breaking it down to non-toxic components). Tweaking the chemical structure of nicotine can prevent its detoxification. These "new" versions of nicotine-like compounds are known as neonicotinoids.

The Good
Some crops simply cannot be grown profitably without the use of some insecticide. Neonicotinoids are remarkably effective at minimizing the potential damage caused by a wide spectrum of insect herbivores. Neonicotinoids are used in a way that renders all parts of the plant toxic to insects.

The Bad
Neonicotinoids kill a wide spectrum of insects, including many that would not cause damage, such as those that pollinate crops--wild bees and honeybees. There is no question about this effect. Not only are leaves and roots rendered toxic, the pollen is toxic as well.

The Ugly
Crops that must be pollinated by insects will injure pollinators that forage on them if neonicotinoids are used. A recent study of oil seed rape (used to produce Canola, for example) clearly demonstrates that use of neonicotinoids on this crop reduces local bee populations. This likely applies to most commercial vegetable crops.

For crops that are treated with neonicotinoids in powdered or granular form applied at planting or later (regardless of whether or not the crops must be pollinated), the insecticide is aerosolized and dispersed into the air.

The Not So Ugly
Although neonicotinoids applied in liquid form in transplant water will still render all parts of the plant (including the pollen) toxic to insects for much of the growing season, it is a significant hazard to bees only if the blossoms are exposed. With tobacco in particular, topping the plants (removing the blossom head) or bagging the head minimizes the risk to pollinators. This is the possible because tobacco is self-fertile.

Conclusion
If you use Admire (imidacloprid, which is also sold under a number of other brand names) to prevent aphids, apply it as a liquid to transplant water, and top the plants or bag them. Don't use it on Orientals, for example, that are allowed to blossom in open air.

Bob
 

Cigar

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I used Bonicde[Acephate] first time this year just one time when tobacco was only few weeks old.and this first year I have no aphids no were..and tell you that was my most insect problem every had growing tobacco used by now have millions of them..but not one. but did not or will not use it on my other stuff I grow..but am sold on Acephate for aphids any way!! great info by the way Bob!! now need way take care of all this dang flea bettles and others!!

Cigar
 

Smokin Harley

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Just from what I know about applying pesticides ( i was once a licensed operator) and bees (ex brother in law used to raise bees) bees are active above 55* and definitely after sun up ,so if theres a chance you can spray outside of those two parameters ,its better for the bees. At least reduces the exposure to the pesticide. I try not to spray anything at all but theres times when you have to do what you have to do to get rid of a problem.
 
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