Is it Mold or Not?

[Orson Carte]

I'm hoping that someone can help me with a fermenting enquiry.As I'm a complete newcomer to home-grown tobacco I'm in the position of staring up a very steep learning-curve.I have built a kiln along very similar lines to that promoted (in this forum) by 'Brent atAmax' and have around 10kgs of (I think) Virginia leaf (of some sort) fermenting in six separate sealed plastic containers - like Brent does it.Now, I keep reading references to 'mold' - and, apologies if it sounds a little stupid - I wonder just what this mold actually looks like. I would imagine there are many different types but my dilemma is whether I'm looking at mold or merely observing the natural change of the leaf from brown to something darker.On the leaves of my 'oldest' batch (which have been cooking for almost three weeks) there are quite dark blotches, mixed with the original brown. These leaves aren't wet but they are quite pliable. The best way I can describe the colors is to say they look a little like those on a green sea-turtle's shell (when it's dead!) Is this how the fermentation change looks, or is it likely I've contracted the dreaded mold?I notice that on Brent's videos his finished product is tobacco that is very dark - almost, but not quite, black. So, maybe I'm worrying for nothing. Or am I?

 

[Matty]

Were the leaves evenly coloured or patchy before they went in the kiln?

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Mold will be three dimensional. You will physically be able to smear it or wipe it. You can often smell it, I assume depending on the species. In the kiln, any mold I had was due to cold spots and poor air circulation. It was always white or pastel green and on the stems.

I've had circular dark mold before, but not in the kiln. That leaf had partially cured on the plant and molded at 40 or 50 Fahrenheit because it was stacked with totally green leaf and not hung yet. I wiped it with a rum soaked rag and continued to cure it. It seems alright now. The more developed of the dark circles had a ring of white fluffy mold at the outer edges.

Make sure the temperature is even throughout the kiln. If you indeed have fear of mold, increase the temperature to 124-125F for a week to kill it before dropping back down to 120-122F

 

[deluxestogie]

Photo?

Bob

 

[Orson Carte]

Okay. I think I've finally managed to post a photo. I think it was my Settings that was giving me trouble.
I hope the pic gives some idea of what I was describing as 'turtle shell'.

 

[Orson Carte]

Mold will be three dimensional. You will physically be able to smear it or wipe it. You can often smell it, I assume depending on the species. In the kiln, any mold I had was due to cold spots and poor air circulation. It was always white or pastel green and on the stems.

I've had circular dark mold before, but not in the kiln. That leaf had partially cured on the plant and molded at 40 or 50 Fahrenheit because it was stacked with totally green leaf and not hung yet. I wiped it with a rum soaked rag and continued to cure it. It seems alright now. The more developed of the dark circles had a ring of white fluffy mold at the outer edges.

Make sure the temperature is even throughout the kiln. If you indeed have fear of mold, increase the temperature to 124-125F for a week to kill it before dropping back down to 120-122F

Voodoo -

I do think I understand what you mean when you say 'three dimensional'. That's how I visualise 'mold' too.
In this present case it is nothing like that. And, it can't be 'smeared'.
My feeling is that this is the normal process when tobacco ferments. ie. it changes to a much darker color. My uncertainty lies with the fact that this is the first time I've ever done this and I wonder if this typical of the process or whether I'm on the path to making compost.
Thanks for your input.

 

[deluxestogie]

Judging from the photo, I would say that it is not mold. The dark areas should be safe to smoke, and should be good. I believe the darker areas were exposed to much higher moisture during kilning than the lighter portions of the leaf.

One challenge with kilning inside separate, closed containers is that there is no air circulation and no control of anything but the external temp. If one end or surface of the box is repeatedly brought to a different temp than the opposite end of the box, then the box develops a condensation cycle, transporting the moisture to the cooler side.

Bob

 

[ProfessorPangloss]

I have little to offer here, but the blotchy black patches look like leaf that cured to uneven coloration. Many of my bottom leaves from last summer (still hanging in my shed) have a kind of calico look with lighter and darker patches. This became noticeable when I made some cavendish with that leaf - some patches started and ended darker (mine didn't fully blacken).

Kudos on trying a kiln as a n00b. I am still a n00b and I haven't gotten close to that.

 

[Hasse SWE]

Orson carte: Very nice picture, I believe that I don't need to say anything about this more than the good answer Bob just have told!

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

I actually kind of like the mottled appearance.

 

[Orson Carte]

My first batch of tobacco (a few samples of which I pictured) have only been in the fermenter for just on three weeks.
Naturally, I was seeking the truth but I suppose what I wanted someone to say to me was, 'Don't worry. It looks like it's supposed to look as it changes color from brown to dark'.
You see, I have been treating good ol' Brent atAmax and his videos of curing in sealed containers, as my guru. In his final YouTube video of the series his tobacco, after 7 weeks of cooking it looks no less dark than the darkened patches on mine. I guess I want to know if the darkening is normally gradual and homogenous or does it happen in a calico-type pattern like mine is displaying.

 

[Knucklehead]

Hands of tobacco that I hang in the kiln free and easy turn a very even color with little to no mottling. I tried kilning some leaf in plastic bags one time and the bags sweated profusely on the inside to the point that water pooled in the bags. The parts of the leaf in contact with the pooled water turned almost black while the dryer parts of the leaf were a nice even brown color.

 

[AmaxB]

Master Bob nailed it for the most part in his reply Post #7 this thread my opinion. In the photo the colors are plain to see but to say is it mold or not is tough. I have seen a black or very dark mold border line black, it can look powder like. As stated if rubbed with finger or thumb it can be wiped off or smear. How ever the area may still be dark under it. Mold can be of different color from whit to black, fuzzy to powdery. Flue cured tobacco can be fermented at lower temperature than air cured and excessive moisture will promoted mold. The tobacco should be damp NOT WET. In my experience Flue cured can be fermented with temperature as low as 118F but 120F / 122F is safer until a feel for the moisture content is developed. 120F for Air Cured but 123F / 124F until a feel for the moisture content is developed. As a high temperature I would not go beyond 128F a temperature above 129F / 130F can scorch the tobacco causing it to smoke rough. When fermenting greater moisture content will promote darker finished color and less moisture lighter color. There are many strains of tobacco each with it's own smoking qualities within the two groups of Air or Flue cured, color can be a rule of thumb but experience is master . As for the photo (from what can be seen) I agree with Bob it appears parts of the leaf were subjected to greater moisture than other parts.
I would not smoke or chew moldy tobacco even if cleaned the mold penetrates the leaf flesh. When I first became interested in leaf tobacco I received some free sample tobacco from New York City it had mold I smoked some early summer. I developed what seemed like a summer time flue that would come and go. That early fall I was in the hospital getting 90% of my left lung removed. The doctors told me I had a very rare Bacteria form of Pneumonia they could not tell me how I got it or from where I got it. I feel it was the moldy tobacco via handling it or smoking it. This is the only time I ever needed a doctor from the age of 9 yrs. I don't get sick with anything more than a mild cold. They did tell me my lungs looked great apart from the Pneumonia and so I still smoke and the lung is growing back but will never be the same.
If using tubes to ferment stack your leaf / one open leaf on top of another misting every two or three leaves. This will promote even moisture and the flow of moisture within the tub. If the tub lid seals well it will hold the moisture for days but should be checked. Removing the lid every day or two will allow the bad gases to escape. If the leaf feels dry mist it a bit (do not wet), If to damp leave the lid off 30 to 60 minutes in 2 plus hour segments until it feels right. Fermenting will take 3 to 4 weeks start testing at 3 weeks. Some times 4 to 5 weeks is good more than 5 weeks usually causes adverse effect. Always use pure water not tap water to mist tobacco.
Avoid hot spots in your kiln I use a small griddle for heat with a small fan on the floor blowing up one side and another at the ceiling opposite side blowing down. I have a rack about 18 inches above the griddle and place 5 sheets of cardboard stacked on the rack with my tube/s on top of them. This helps in preventing a hot tube bottom. (The walls, floor, and ceiling of my kiln interior are cement backer board the door is aluminum. At less than 130F there is small chance of fire but if building a kiln keep fire in mind.)
With time, doing, and study you will learn. A point will come you will know just by the look, feel and smell what needs to be done or if the tobacco is ready.
Through this forum and self study I have learned much but there is much more to learn. It is only right that I attempt to give back.
Hope I have been of help...
Brent

 

[Orson Carte]

Brent -

Your comments are greatly appreciated. Thank you for taking the time with such an expansive reply.
I think the hardest thing to gauge, (in using your method with sealed containers) is exactly what the ambient conditions are inside the container. I have a sensor that tells me the heat and humidity in the chamber itself (and I although would presume that in a fairly short time the temperature enclosed in the container would pretty much equalise with the chamber) the humidity is quite another matter, isn't it?
I stand to be corrected but I would think that provided the seal is good, the humidity of the container might legitimately bear no relation to that of the chamber.
So, I think I understand what you mean about 'feeling' the texture of the leaf when the container is opened, in order to gauge its moisture.
If I have done anything wrong in creating that 'calico' leaf it is that (although I only lightly misted right from the start) the humidity might've been too high - and I had no way of knowing it.
To overcome this problem today I purchased several small thermometer/hygrometers and have put one into each container. The significant discovery from doing this was to learn that although the leaf and container were relatively dry, the humidity reading was around 90%. I am presently running things with the lids cracked open a little just to see what happens.
Despite this very sharp learning curve I have every confidence that I am actually achieving something to the good and very much look forward to testing the first fermented leaves in the next week or two. (It sure beats spending twelve months or more waiting and wondering).
So, once again, I am extremely grateful for the guidance you have given me (and no doubt many others) in this arcane art.
Thanks
Ed

 

[AmaxB]

I should add in the begging many pounds of tobacco met the trash can do to rot, mold, or other. I simply had to push the limits to know. There is much information on line, some good, much incomplete, and some just wrong. Always cross search and use good judgment. Tobacco is a mystery she's always changing due to soil, climate, location, rain fall, crop to crop, process .... but mystery is a good thing it keeps one interested after all you never get to know her until you have spent a great deal of time with her and the make up and dress have been removed.
Brent

 

[AmaxB]

Brent -

Your comments are greatly appreciated. Thank you for taking the time with such an expansive reply.
I think the hardest thing to gauge, (in using your method with sealed containers) is exactly what the ambient conditions are inside the container. I have a sensor that tells me the heat and humidity in the chamber itself (and I although would presume that in a fairly short time the temperature enclosed in the container would pretty much equalise with the chamber) the humidity is quite another matter, isn't it?
I stand to be corrected but I would think that provided the seal is good, the humidity of the container might legitimately bear no relation to that of the chamber.
So, I think I understand what you mean about 'feeling' the texture of the leaf when the container is opened, in order to gauge its moisture.
If I have done anything wrong in creating that 'calico' leaf it is that (although I only lightly misted right from the start) the humidity might've been too high - and I had no way of knowing it.
To overcome this problem today I purchased several small thermometer/hygrometers and have put one into each container. The significant discovery from doing this was to learn that although the leaf and container were relatively dry, the humidity reading was around 90%. I am presently running things with the lids cracked open a little just to see what happens.
Despite this very sharp learning curve I have every confidence that I am actually achieving something to the good and very much look forward to testing the first fermented leaves in the next week or two. (It sure beats spending twelve months or more waiting and wondering).
So, once again, I am extremely grateful for the guidance you have given me (and no doubt many others) in this arcane art.
Thanks
Ed

You need no humidity in the kiln the tub/s contain the environment. Judging from the colors your moisture is not as uniform as it could be within the leaves as a whole. This could be due to hot spots or the way you have placed the leaves in the tub. I have found that having some open space from top to bottom here and there at the walls with two uniform leaf stacks side by side occupying the majority of the tub interior helps. If done right the moisture content of the leaves will feel the same through the leaf stack after a day. Also after 4 or 5 days the leaves at the bottom of the stacks will become dry while leaves at the top will still be damp. this indicates the tub bottom is getting to much heat. When you get it right the bottom leaves will remain damp and the top leaves will begin to dry after a number of days. At that point you simply mist the top leaves in place and over all the moisture through out will remain pretty uniform. Remember it take a little time for things to balance. The kiln will reach a set temperature and the tobacco will catch up. Think of a roast in the oven the oven is set at 350F but after 20 minutes the roast interior is 80F. After one hour the roast interior is 250F and after 2 hours the roast interior is 350F. Tobacco in the kiln with use of tub/s is the same temperature will balance. The better your lid seals the better your moisture control will be. If you are getting a lot of condensation build up your tobacco is to moist. You should not get a lot but will get a little.
Brent

 

[Orson Carte]

I think that the fact that only the sealed containers need to be humidified is the inherent beauty of your system. However, it is also the aspect that needs to closely monitored.
In no way do I wish to appear as though I know what I'm talking about - I unequivocally don't!
However, I do think (probably through sheer beginners luck) have managed to get the moisture approximately right. I'm actually still quite hopeful that those darker 'calico' patches will in the next fortnight become one homogenous darkened leaf. I do concede that I may have encouraged this aberration through having a little too much moisture. My other five batches (in separate containers) show little or nothing of the calico pattern.
I truly am digesting all these things that you are saying, Brent. I don't think I've got things over-wet and the moisture is pretty uniform throughout the leaves that I have closed-stacked, in two columns in each container.
The only way in which I differ a little from what I have seen in your vids is that my containers don't have a gasket seal. And this is only because I couldn't find anything like that on the shelves of our biggest big-box store at the time when I desperately wanted to get the process started.
Initially, I thought the seal was good enough but it was remarkable just how quickly the leaves dried out - even with a crockpot steaming on the floor. My next move was to seal the whole lid with elasticized tape - which appears to be very effective, but a pain in the proverbial when it comes top easy opening and closing of the lid. (New tape each time)
Btw. It took a few days, all sealed up like this for me to have a eureka moment - like, what the hell am I running this crockpot for?
I did like your analogy regarding the removal of make-up and apparel - I just knew I was going to enjoy the Tobacco Business.