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Flue Cured

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FmGrowit

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This is going to be a tricky topic. Flue cured varieties are subject to two definitions. One, Flue cured growing habits and the other, Flue cured curing practices.

Let's try to keep this forum about varieties opposed to the curing process.
 

Timmy

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I think this is the appropriate place for my question...? I'm a pipe smoker and am used to buying VA based tobaccos. As I look into blending, there's a variety of different VAs; yellow, red, brightleaf... But when I went to research wholeleaf, it seems to only be listed as flue cured. How do you know which variety you're getting? I know how VAs are stoved and matured, but what differentiates the different varieties when buying in whole leaf form? Thanks for any help
 

FmGrowit

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Thanks for joining and Welcome to the site.

A gang of us started rediscovering the industry secrets about three years ago. We've uncovered some secrets the industry had forgotten about centuries ago. It's true, many, if not all varieties have different flavor characteristics. We know this from personal experiences with these different varieties. Unfortunately, Flue Cured tobacco is one of those types that has not been explored too deeply. The process of Flue Curing your own tobacco (on a hobbyist level) is something we're working on, but really have not even taken it to a basic prototype level yet.

I have about three different varieties and a sample of Canadian variety. BigBonner is a commercial grower and he grew his own Flue Cured and cured his own last year.

I'll be happy to send you samples of what I have and maybe BB will do the same. All I ask is if you give us your opinion of the different varieties. It will be a first for the site and I'm pretty sure...a first anywhere.

You'll soon realize, much of the information on this site exists nowhere else.
 

Timmy

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Thanks, that's a generous offer. But am I correct in that 'flue cured' = 'Virginia' in most cases? I understand that flue-curing is a curing method, but when I look for different strains of Virginia (red, yellow, bright, brown) all I come up with is 'flue cured'. For instance, when I buy a tin of pipe tobacco, it may have a description that says something like 'A blend of red, gold and dark stoved VAs'. I understand how to make the stoved, but how does one tell whether the whole leaf they bought is the red, or the gold, or brown, yellow, etc..... sorry if I'm not making much sense. I thought I had this down pretty well until I actually started reading about it. :D
 

deluxestogie

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Tim,
"Virginia" pipe tobacco can be any flue-cure variety that has been bright-cured (also called flue-cured), and can come from anywhere from Alabama to Zimbabwe.

The lemon-colored Virginias are almost exclusively flue-cure processed, to fix the light color. Flue-cure processed leaf undergoes little if any further aging, since the high temperature (165-195º+) denatures the leaf's oxidizing enzymes--the whole point of flue-cure processing. So called "mature Virginia" is any flue-cure variety that has been air-cured, then either aged for several years or kilned, both of which darken the color, broaden the flavor, and raise the pH. Stoving with steam accomplishes a similar result. The ultimate color of aged or kilned Virginia depends on many factors, which includes the particular named variety, the leaf position on the stalk (lower is brighter, higher is darker), how mature the leaf is when harvested, the ambient humidity during aging, and the duration of aging. Kilning pretty much takes "aging" to near completion in 4 to 6 weeks.

Most pipe and cigar forum discussions are limited to categorical discussions of tobacco varieties, or even just to the specifically processed product of commercially available pipe tobacco or cigar leaf manufacturers or brokers. To add to this, pipe tobacco ingredients such as Black Cavendish can be manufactured from nearly any variety of tobacco, each having its own unique characteristics.

Now, about growing flue-cure tobacco: The resulting leaf, if only air-cured (color cured), is fairly harsh stuff. If you age or kiln a flue-cure variety, you do end up with a nice tobacco that, like flue-cure processed leaf, has a somewhat lower pH, and offers a slight bite on the tip of the tongue. Smoking it straight, in a pipe, it does taste different from non-flue-cure varieties treated the same way. But to get that recognizable edginess of bright "Virginia" pipe tobacco, it needs to be flue-cure processed. FmGrowit does have some very nice flue-cure processed leaf for sale, which I have used to make some lovely English-style pipe blends.

Bob
 

FmGrowit

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If you think Virginia is confusing, try to figure out Perique :)...actually, I think we've done a pretty good job on that one.

Yes, you are correct that about 95% of the time, "Virginia" means Flue Cured. The color descriptions reference the physical color of the leaf and not necessarily that of the variety. "Lemon" is almost always used to describe Canadian Flue Cure tobacco. Big baccy wants their FCV darker these days. The "Red", "Orange" and "Mahogany" are all descriptions of America FCV. The color is determined during the curing process. A slight increase in heat just before the leaf is finished will determine the finished color. last year, big baccy wanted Mahogany, this year, they're already asking for Orange...at least from what my sources suggest.

The darker the FCV is the better it burns. The Canadian Lemon is somewhat of an exception because of the latitude which it is grown, the leaf is inherently thinner which allows a clean burn even though the leaf is Bright.

Send me your address and I'll send some samples. I only know the names of 2 or 3 of the samples, but we're going to make an effort to have growers attach the varietal name with their leaf this year. For the first time in many years, their will be domestic hand harvested FCV available this Fall. The auction price of this leaf promises to make it very worthwhile for the grower. The target grower is the small family owned farm where they only produce a couple of acres a year. There is going to be a relearning curve, but I'm hoping there are enough old timers around to teach us how to do it properly.
 

Timmy

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If you think Virginia is confusing, try to figure out Perique :)...actually, I think we've done a pretty good job on that one.

Yes, you are correct that about 95% of the time, "Virginia" means Flue Cured. The color descriptions reference the physical color of the leaf and not necessarily that of the variety. "Lemon" is almost always used to describe Canadian Flue Cure tobacco. Big baccy wants their FCV darker these days. The "Red", "Orange" and "Mahogany" are all descriptions of America FCV. The color is determined during the curing process. A slight increase in heat just before the leaf is finished will determine the finished color. last year, big baccy wanted Mahogany, this year, they're already asking for Orange...at least from what my sources suggest.

The darker the FCV is the better it burns. The Canadian Lemon is somewhat of an exception because of the latitude which it is grown, the leaf is inherently thinner which allows a clean burn even though the leaf is Bright.

Send me your address and I'll send some samples. I only know the names of 2 or 3 of the samples, but we're going to make an effort to have growers attach the varietal name with their leaf this year. For the first time in many years, their will be domestic hand harvested FCV available this Fall. The auction price of this leaf promises to make it very worthwhile for the grower. The target grower is the small family owned farm where they only produce a couple of acres a year. There is going to be a relearning curve, but I'm hoping there are enough old timers around to teach us how to do it properly.
Thanks to both of you guys, this has really taken my understanding to a new level. I really appreciate it! I'd love some samples. I joined the site mostly to research whole leaf and find a good source, which I seem to have, but now I'm already curious about growing. Thanks again.
 

BigBonner

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The way I understand it Burley or about any tobacco can be flue cured .

I know when I was a young boy , That we had coke stoves in the burley barns to cure tobacco with all doors closed . .
 

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There should be no such thing as flue cured varieties. Sure there is tobacco that is grown for flue curing. I think it should be called by its varietal name. Can't you air, sun or fire cure Virginia tobacco? I don't think one or the other should be assumed, the variety or the curing method. It may be that there is a particular way to grow tobacco according to how it is planned to be cured and I know particular varieties have popular curing methods. I would hope we don't get them mixed up.
 

FmGrowit

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There are some long established industry standards that for sake of confusion, should be maintained. There is a lot of terminology that can be disputed, but there probably isn't any really good reason to change it.
 

deluxestogie

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Juxtaposer,
The industry-wide usage of "Flue-Cured" as a tobacco category, was established by the USDA, and its use was enforced until recently in all tobacco markets for decades. It is a manufacturing industry term that appears world-wide, and is not likely to fade from use any time soon.

Bob
 

Juxtaposer

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I see... Am I correct in assuming that tobacco titled flue cured is best suited for flue curing etc, etc.?
 

deluxestogie

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"Best" is probably too extravagant a word. The varieties within the Flue-Cured class are usually a good bet if you plan to flue-cure for cigarettes. All other classes can be flue-cured, but result may or may not resemble the familiar characteristics of commercial cigarette tobacco.

Bob
 

Daniel

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Juxtaposer, The way I see it. We have a lot of people that join the group and start asking. How can I make this tobacco or that tobacoo giving some brand name or the name of a cigar etc. We as a group really can't give any definite answers. We may never be able to. I know for me I could make it Camel cigarettes. What to grow is only one part of the problem. What to do with it after that is another. So far the suggestions on this group and others like it is to simply air cure everything. And yes you can air cure everything and for the most part be successful with it. But is that the best option? What other options are available? You can fire cure a few leaves at a time in a smoker as Bob has done. But what about a years supply? So far we seem to have a great handle on the easiest most convenient method of handling and aging the tobacco. Hopefully it is time to expand the methods. I don't think Flue curing is going to be much more difficult than building a kiln. maybe a more expensive kiln that reached higher temperatures.

As for varieties in general and how I have them categorized so far. THis is what I am growing this year and how I listed them for curing.
Yellow Twist Bud Burley, air cure
Monte Calm Yellow Burley, air cure
Ergo Burley Burley, air cure
TN90 Burley, air cure
Gold Seed Burley Burley, air cure
Havana 142 Burley, air cure
Lonnies Havana Burley, air cure
14L8/TN86 cross Burley, air cure
#9 Virginia Flue Cure
#7 Virginia Flue Cure
Dark Virginia Flue Cure
Virginia Gold Flue Cure
Virginia Bright Leaf Flue Cure
Bursa Oriental, sun cure
Silver River Oriental, sun cure
Samsun 15 Oriental, sun cure
Black Sea Samsun Oriental, sun cure
Lizard Tail Orinoco Oriental, sun cure
Perique Oriental, sun cure
Aztec Rustica
Costello
African Red

Teh above is not the result of a lot of research and is subject to abundant refining. So far if they are Burley they are listed as air cured, if they are Virginia they are listed as Flue Cured and if they are Oriental I listed them as Sun Cured. I am working on the FLue Curing this year and will most likely air cure all my Oriental varieties. I suspect sun curing is going to be a difficult thing for me to accomplish. In my dry climate I am likely to flash cure the leaf green. Larry has been mentioning just leaving the tobacco in the sun for a day or two. I am thinking my leaf could dry in hours. I will Least a few leaves to see for myself.

Bob asked that this discussion focus on varieties that do not take to Flue curing. I cannot add much in the way of specific varieties but will focus on the tendancy that Burleys do not. Burley also tends to be a very harsh tobacco when first cured. Aging fixes that problem. Where I have found that Virginias end to have a much more pleasant taste after curing and come can be smokes as soon as they are dry. Virginias will also tend to mellow to the point of no taste at all if aged.
TO me flue curing is about locking in the flavor of a tobacco that is suitable for that. You don't want to lock in the flavor of a Burley at the point it is cured. Virginias it seems you do.

SO far I have air cured everything I then sample it as soon as it is dry. IF I like what I smoke it is a candidate for flue curing . If I don't it is not.

In all for me there is a very long way to go. I have not sampled all that many varieties. this year will add 18 new ones. Next year I hope to add many many more. If I repeat my 1800 plant crop again next year. only about 450 of them need to be for my personal use production. That means I will have room for 1350 test plants. That is a lot of sampling. I have the rooom to do it this year just not the time or the money for the equipment needed. I am focused on making a tobacco we enjoy smoking first. then I can sample and compare against that.

Even after all that there is the individual what is your favorite color factor. What tastes good to me may be nasty to you. You may like liver and I can't stand the smell of it. IN the end it comes down to personal taste likes and dislikes. But to offer people more options in gaining the taste they are lookign for. Other methods of curing, fermenting and processing of tobacco need to be developed for the back yard grower.
 

BigBonner

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Burley is best left in the sun if you are not scorching hot .Im saying in the 70's to 85 degrees is ok .

Now havana , ct broad leaf and most cigar varietys . You can only let them wilt for about a hour or enough to handle the plants . If cigar varietys lay in the sun too much they will sun burn easy leaving the leaf thin and green where it sun burned .
This also goes for one sucker and dark fire air .There may be Other varietys that may not like the sun very well .
 

Daniel

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On the sun cure, flue cured subject. As I understand it they are almost the same thing. Flue Curing is simply more controlled. Until I learn more of exactly what is taking place I also consider piling of the leaf and turning as it heats up a variation on this method as well. The issue at hand for the tobacco is whether aging is stopped or not. It is the heat that haults the aging process. I am taking an in depth look at Flue curing for now. Sun curing may not even be possible for me. Letting the tobacco wilt in the sun may be but I have to cut, wilt, load and transport my tobacco in hours drive away in one day.
It presents problems in how I have to handle my tobacco. The tobacco will be loaded in a pile in a U-haul box truck. if it is hot from the sun this might cause problems. I also have to consider that even after spending the time harvesting and loading it. My crew still has an hours trip to make and must unload the entire thing. This crew consists of my wife and children (Adult Children) so whips and such are not permitted.

I could make Burleys the first thing we cut and the last thing we load and allow them to wilt int eh sun in between. but this woudl be a matter of hours at most.

We could make a trip a day or two ahead of time and harvest the burleys and leave them to wilt for a day or two. But we would not be available to monitor there progress. Drying to green would be an issue in our dry climate.

So far my plan calls for us to get up very early go harvest all the tobacco get it home and then decide how to best process it. letting it then set in the sun and wilt would be far more doable that way. Room becomes my problem at that point.
 

Jitterbugdude

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Sun and flue cured are essentially the same thing. Flue cured is much more regulated and as such would give you more consistent results. Both methods "set" the sugar content in the leaf. I think the differences in methods exists because of the technological differences( in cultures) that existed at the time. Something tells me though that somebody on this forum will probably make a flue curing chamber and cure all sorts of leaf in it.

As for myself. I'm going to make some Perique this year from Turkish tobacco.
Randy B
 

Daniel

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In dons original post he said.
"Let's try to keep this forum about varieties opposed to the curing process"
I am reading that as "Let's try to keep this forum about varieties, as opposed to the curing process"

Right now I am very interested in the varieties as well as any methods use to grow those varieties.

My list above is a very uniformed guess as to what is a Flue Cure variety. As an example I found this morning that Havana 142 is listed on one site as a Bright Leaf Tobacco. To be a Bright Leaf it must be Flue Cured. I would never have guessed that. I also found that African Red is listed as a Bright Leaf variety. Now that one is intentionally trying to be deceptive. Who names a Bright Leaf tobacco with the word red in it? African Gold maybe. Does anyone know if this tobacco cures Red or something even if it is Flue Cured?

I copied this from the Flue Cured Tobacco Guide 2011.
According to a recent survey, NC 196 was the most popular variety of flue-cured tobacco planted in North Carolina during 2010. NC 196 was grown on 22 percent of the tobacco acres in the state. Other popular varieties were K 326 (21 percent), CC 27 (16 percent), NC 71 (11 percent), K 346 (5 percent), and PVH 1452 (5 percent). Figure 3-1 shows the five most popular varieties planted since 2006. To select the right variety for your fields, consider the information produced during variety testing at a research station in your area.

Figure 3-1 adds Speight 168 to the list of the most popular varieties in North Carolina. Keep in mind this guide is published by the NC Stare University.

It goes on to list
CC 65 is a new variety available from Cross Creek Seeds. GF 318 is a new variety available from Raynor Seed Co. and marketed by Gold Leaf Seeds. Agronomic data for all new varieties can be found in Tables 3-3 through 3-7. Disease resistance information can be found in Chapter 8, “Managing Diseases.”

Tables 3-3 through 3-7 can be found starting on page 30 (28 if using the page numbers) of the guide and consists of a chart 14 pages long listing performance of probably over 225 flue cure tobacco varieties.
I am starting to think that there really is no such thign as a Flue Cure variety but that any tobacco can be Flue Cured, as in the process and that is what makes any tobacco Flue Cured.
below is a link to the guide.
http://ipm.ncsu.edu/Production_Guides/Flue-cured/flue_cured.pdf
 
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