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Fermenting before stem drying

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ChinaVoodoo

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An experienced grower in a Facebook group I'm in suggested to someone a method that is altogether different from what I've heard discussed in the forum.

He said once colour curing is done, raise the temperature to 99F, maintaining 70% humidity, for two weeks, then raise the temperature one degree a day until you're at 129F. Hold that until the aroma of ammonia is gone, then raise it to 130F to stop the fermentation.

I'm fascinated because I've never observed ammonia production strong enough to smell in my kiln despite hearing reports that commercial cigar barns are full of it. It sounds like he's doing something right. It makes sense that the enzymatic action would be the most active at this time because much of the water and vasculature of the leaf is still relatively intact, no?
 

Tutu

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I remember being in Brazil and we had one place where you would just not be able to be in for longer than five minutes because of the intensity of ammonia. That was a fermentation warehouse rather than a barn, a place where tobacco not yet dry enough from the barn would go if I remember correctly.
 

Cigar

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I have bought tobacco from different places..[not from WLT].. and have smelled strong "ammonia"..after looking up/reading alot about the smell of ammonia they all agree..that smell is mothers natures way of saying....am not done with fermatation process..only half-way through..I have to be very careful here by saying that..just me who belives you cannot rush the aging tobacco no matter what you come-up with..and there are many ways [great ones at that] people try to rush the true aging of the process...:confused:
 

ChinaVoodoo

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I have bought tobacco from different places..[not from WLT].. and have smelled strong "ammonia"..after looking up/reading alot about the smell of ammonia they all agree..that smell is mothers natures way of saying....am not done with fermatation process..only half-way through..I have to be very careful here by saying that..just me who belives you cannot rush the aging tobacco no matter what you come-up with..and there are many ways [great ones at that] people try to rush the true aging of the process...:confused:

I'm not suggesting this is a fast track. Just another way.
 

Smokin Harley

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I would think in 2 months the ammonia would be gone anyway...worth a shot though I guess.
I'm actually tempted to go out to my barn and take down all my wire strung leaf that is hanging, lay it on the floor in a circle and build up a Pilon . If I do this I think I would go find a wooden pallet and build it on top of it for air circulation.
 

deluxestogie

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The 10 or so days prior to reaching 120º F will risk vegetative growth of mold, depending on the water content of the leaf and stems. The proposed 130º F to stop fermentation is too low to denature the primary oxidase enzyme (which denatures at 149º F). The part about "hold that until the ammonia is gone," is the meat of this method.

"Cigar," I agree about ammonia being a sign of incomplete fermentation. I disagree about forced aging. Tobacco left alone in the right natural temp and humidity will pretty much complete all oxidative changes after several years. But the chemical oxidative processes are temperature dependent (as are all enzymatic changes). So kilning or "sweating" under artificial conditions accelerates the process dramatically, bringing the time down to weeks. After that, the changes with time (under natural ambient temps) are oh so subtle.

Bob
 

Isabel

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Also when you run tobacco through a redry process in order to control for humidity to be on the same level before packing, you can really sense the ammonia. It is sometimes to hard to stand it and you feel it even burning in your eyes.
 

ChinaVoodoo

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I hear what you're saying about the mold, Bob. I thought about that myself, but wonder, at 70% humidity with good airflow, I think it would be ok. It is an important question as nobody wants to lose half their crop.

I still don't understand the fact that I don't ever smell ammonia except when smoking un-kilned/un-aged tobacco. I'd describe it as more of a urea smell though. Is it possible it's there, just I'm perhaps desensitized to it because I work with photo chemicals, and old developer smells like ammonia, and have 4 cats? My friend said he smelled ammonia in the curing room and in the kilning tobacco.

The ammonia smell in cigar tobacco production...is it at the pilone stage, or at a stage in between curing and fermenting?
 

Tutu

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If my memory serves me well it was tobacco that arrived from curing barns that was not yet suited for pilon fermentation. But then again I wouldn't know why only a small portion of all the tobacco that came in from the barns had this characteristic ammonia smell, and why it was all in the same room. My memory says that it was the tobacco that was still too wet. But then I wouldn't know why not all tobacco at some stage gives of the ammonia smell. I'll ask a guy in Brazil who should know (though his English is not brilliant and usually a lot is lost in translation)
 

ChinaVoodoo

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If my memory serves me well it was tobacco that arrived from curing barns that was not yet suited for pilot fermentation. But then again I wouldn't know why only a small portion of all the tobacco that came in from the barns had this characteristic ammonia smell. My memory says that it was the tobacco that was still too wet. But then I wouldn't know why not all tobacco at some stage gives of the ammonia smell. I'll ask a guy in Brazil who should know (though his English is not brilliant and usually a lot is lost in translation)

This tobacco... Was it still on sticks?
 

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Taken off at first to be brought from the barn to the warehouse but putten back on for it to hang again (which is why my mind was thinking it was still too wet to go to full fermentation)
 

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Tobacco itself does not contain a significant amount of ammonia. The source of the ammonia is primarily albuminous proteins, which are rich in raw tobacco. One of the key oxidative processes that occurs during aging and fermentation (in addition to conversion of carbohydrates) is to chemically cleave nitrogen moieties from the protein. A product of this is ammonia. Humidification allows this ammonia to volatilize.

I regularly notice that tobacco smoked directly from the kiln has a "raw" taste. After even a few days, this subsides. I assume that this brief rest allows some of those nasty volatile oxidation products to escape from the cooler leaf.

Bob
 

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Certain Havana has a taste of ammonia water, after six months of cellar, this taste disappears definitively

Too young tobacco...
 

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Do any of these processes affect pH of the leaf? Because when I raise it up even a bit it seems that a ton gets released even from well aged tobacco.
 

AmaxB

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I agree with Bob at 99F mold would be a real risk, air flow if high to stop the mold would likely dry the tobacco even though the humidity is high. If I were to try this I would set temp no lower than 117F if for an extended time.
 

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I have question on this process? is it possible to de-stem your tobacco [after color-cured] and and kinda flatten your leaves "then" ferment the leaves? or do you have to leave the stems intact?



Cigar
 

ChinaVoodoo

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I have question on this process? is it possible to de-stem your tobacco [after color-cured] and and kinda flatten your leaves "then" ferment the leaves? or do you have to leave the stems intact?



Cigar

I don't think any of us have tried this. A fellow from Facebook introduced this idea to me. The consensus is that it is a very risky method of curing. In addition to mold risk, from what I've been reading about curing is that an excessively prolonged curing will result in a lot of weight loss and low sugar content.
 

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You can remove all or part of the stem. It won't matter during traditional fermentation. I find the stem's presence useful for handling the leaf, but I've removed it in situations where the stem was molding.

If you have a seedling heat mat, you can lay all the color-cured leaf flat on it for several days to a week. This will fully dry the stems.

Bob
 
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