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Dannyray

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I believe I have successfully made my first tobacco cross. With a Native American Wild strain from Arizona. And theTurkish strain. I'm looking to trade Turkish seeds or my new cross for other varieties of cigarette tobacco. I am looking for more kinds to cross with native varieties. We have a few different kinds around here i can collect and trade. Most ate smal leaf and when I put one kind in a jar and heated it up 190 degrees in the oven and let it sit for about a week it smelt and tasted just like chocolate and smoked very well as you can tell I'm still learning how to cure but I would like to trade and I would like to know how to post pics on here? Thank you for reading my post . woo hoo
I am grateful to be here. Thank you all again.
 
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ChinaVoodoo

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Danny Ray,

Welcome to the forum.

Concerning the cross, I believe you will find hesitant interest among members because of lack of specificity. "Turkish" could mean hundreds of different tobaccos. "Native strain" could mean anything, and is especially ambiguous because as far as I know, neither Nicotiana tabacum or rustica are native to Arizona. I believe Nicotiana quadrivalvis is the only truly "wild" tobacco in the region. I've never heard of a any attempts to cross quadrivalvis and tabacum. If indeed you were successful, it would be an interesting plant.

Do you have photo evidence, or more information on the tobacco varieties? Can you explain how you performed the cross? Was the seed from the wild strain gathered by you, what does it look like, and where does it grow?
 

Smokin Harley

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Hate to burst your balloon ,but crossing varieties in order to get a "hybridized" variety that you can honestly call a cross requires many many generations (like at least 10)of the cross at a genetic level resulting in a predictable outcome of characteristics (growth habit,disease resistance ). Having two varieties cross one season/time is not a cross you can depend on. Doubt very much you'll get any takers on your seed .
If you take 2 known varieties with for example Xx and Yy genetics respectively and cross them you will get XY,xy,Xy and xY ...add more genetics other than 2 and the resulting cross combination multiplies exponentially. Cross those back to each other and you might get the parental genetics back ,you might get any number of unknown or undesired traits .
Take the Labrador and the Poodle cross , very popularly known as a Labradoodle . It took way more than a one time meeting of both the breeds to result in what is a sellable "commodity" and still in my eyes just a "high priced mutt" that I would never own.
Take again the example of the horse and the donkey resulting in a what is known as a mule. Perfect work/pack animal ,only drawback is they end up sterile.
 

Cigar

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WOW..Smokin Harley..even know I agree with your logic there about cross-breeding..if I was new guy here i would have sure felt like you just "Smoke" me out of the water haha.

Cigar
 

Tutu

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I don't think it was meant to "smoke" anyone, but simply to make one understand that the specifics of crossing are detailed and precise. But in the last place to demotivate anyone. Danny has taken the first steps of actually crossing different plants. Hardly anyone gets these things right the first time. But a start is a start of something. His interest to cross different varieties have been sparked and that is only a good thing. So if you have more to tell about what you actually performed with the crossing, go ahead and tell us. We might be sceptical at this forum about these things but we are definitely very interested in them too. I know I am!
 

Cigar

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AEdeVries...totaly agree love that people are interested in planting/breeding tobacco of anykind I was only stated fact that sometimes when new to game the "old school" will belittle you without knowing it not meaning to but they mean no real harm..

Cigar
 

Smokin Harley

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WOW..Smokin Harley..even know I agree with your logic there about cross-breeding..if I was new guy here i would have sure felt like you just "Smoke" me out of the water haha.

Cigar
I have this thing . I can explain things that are in most peoples minds- difficult or too technical. I try my best to find a "lay-mans terms" explanation that those people better understand. It gets better when I have to get out the paper and pencil . When I was young and had trouble in my school studies, my (older by 4 years) sister could always explain it to me that I would understand better.
Plus, my horticultural college education helped.
 

Smokin Harley

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AEdeVries...totaly agree love that people are interested in planting/breeding tobacco of anykind I was only stated fact that sometimes when new to game the "old school" will belittle you without knowing it not meaning to but they mean no real harm..

Cigar
No, not at all was I trying to belittle anyone. Just explaining that a one time cross whether it be accidental or intended is not a true recognized predictable cross. Takes quite a long time and fine detail studying of traits (good or bad) that can sometimes accompany others during a cross process.
A lot of tomatoes have been developed , over the course of natural selection (survival of the fittest)and cross genetics so the outcome is a proven color, shape size and among other things, VFN (Verticilium wilt, Fusarium and Nematode) resistant. It didn't just happen with a one time pollination cross by a bee in great-grandpas victory garden.
 

deluxestogie

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Crossing Nicotiana tabacum with N. rustica, is a curious business. It's not simply crossing two differing strains of the same species, but attempting to cross two different species. Both are tetraploids, that is, they each contain four distinct versions of the chromosome sets inherited from their theoretical parent species. It's very messy.

TABLE_NicotianaChromosomeNumbers.JPG

Pairs of Nicotiana chromosomes, by species (haploid number).
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1086129/pdf/pnas01807-0011.pdf

When two varieties of the same Nicotiana species are crossed, the tetraploid chromosome sets align properly. When attempting to cross these two different species, the chromosome sets do not align properly. As a result, the outcome of N. tabacum ova pollinated by N. rustica pollen is nearly always infertile--usually no seeds are formed, and the blossom pod dies and drops off the plant. The results are better, though still quite poor, when N. tabacum pollen fertilizes N. rustica ova.

So it's possible (though improbable) to fertilize a N. rustica plant using pollen taken from N. tabacum stamen.

If this improbable cross succeeds, then the resulting "mule" seedlings will consist of many, many distinctly different plants, each with a random mixture of the possible gene combinations. Many of these first generation plants will grow, but be infertile. The grower must select desirable plants from a large planting of this first (F1) generation, then attempt to germinate their seed. This process (of selecting plants from a large number of offspring of each selected plant) must be repeated for a number of years, while the selection criteria remain unchanged. It is possible to eventually end up with low enough heterozygosity (mixed gene traits) to consider the newly developed plant to be genetically stable. Sometimes, back-crossing to one of the original parent plants is required to retain certain desired traits.

When crossing two established N. tabacum varieties, each of which are genetically considered to be virtually homozygous (no mixed gene traits), the development process requires typically 7 to 10 years to complete. "Complete" means that all the seed of the self-fertilized, newly developed variety will grow true to type.

By contrast, an interspecies cross, if it works at all, will require at least 7 to 10 years, but probably much longer, as well as the substantial work of repeated, large plantings, to be fully stabilized.

This is not to disparage the attempt, but rather to point out (as others have already) that this is not simply a 1 or 2 season experiment with a small number of plants. Seeds from the first few generations of such a cross should be considered a pig in a poke (or as Forrest Gump would say, "like a box of chocolates. You never know what you'll get.")

Bob
 

Dannyray

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I don't scare very easily I just found some tobacco up on the mountain and we have about 4 different Native strains here with high nicotine content small leaves and it grows in the winter that's why I'm doing it I want to create a strain that can grow at higher elevation and way above the 45th parallel I'm not such a newbie to plants or etnobotanicals. I was fortunate enough to take .2 grams of marijuana to the Arizona Supreme Court for my religious and medicinal use I am a proud member of the Peyote Way Church of God and possibly one of the best Cactus cultivators in the country I do it with extreme religious intent and I'm saving an endangered species I also have tri-colored sweet corn that consists of South American blue jade California heirloom and Yuma gold which I got from the Native American Seed search they also have some really nice varieties of tobacco from New and Mexico and I don't worry about what other people think of me that's none of my business I am very grateful to have discovered this form so that I may learn more about tobacco I'ma make do kind of guy and I don't mind what I have I
To smoking right now I just don't like smoking the same flavor all the time and I do know that whst is in the area has nicotine we also have the blue tree tobacco that is all over the river bottom in the summer and we have a lot of little insects hear that will cross-pollinate your tobacco all by themselves you fellas have a wonderful evening and gals I will post some pictures tomorrow if anything I've created a wonderful flower white and about 5 inches long they could be used for ornamental purposes like Jasmine tobacco I also did some time in Northern California and I'm very aware of what number 7 is the seventh cross of s strain medicinal marijuana that was selected for it's different trades for marketability as a commodity I maybe new to the form. But I'm no stranger to the plant kingdom.
 

ChinaVoodoo

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I don't scare very easily I just found some tobacco up on the mountain and we have about 4 different Native strains here with high nicotine content small leaves and it grows in the winter that's why I'm doing it I want to create a strain that can grow at higher elevation and way above the 45th parallel I'm not such a newbie to plants or etnobotanicals. I was fortunate enough to take .2 grams of marijuana to the Arizona Supreme Court for my religious and medicinal use I am a proud member of the Peyote Way Church of God and possibly one of the best Cactus cultivators in the country I do it with extreme religious intent and I'm saving an endangered species I also have tri-colored sweet corn that consists of South American blue jade California heirloom and Yuma gold which I got from the Native American Seed search they also have some really nice varieties of tobacco from New and Mexico and I don't worry about what other people think of me that's none of my business I am very grateful to have discovered this form so that I may learn more about tobacco I'ma make do kind of guy and I don't mind what I have I
To smoking right now I just don't like smoking the same flavor all the time and I do know that whst is in the area has nicotine we also have the blue tree tobacco that is all over the river bottom in the summer and we have a lot of little insects hear that will cross-pollinate your tobacco all by themselves you fellas have a wonderful evening and gals I will post some pictures tomorrow if anything I've created a wonderful flower white and about 5 inches long they could be used for ornamental purposes like Jasmine tobacco I also did some time in Northern California and I'm very aware of what number 7 is the seventh cross of s strain medicinal marijuana that was selected for it's different trades for marketability as a commodity I maybe new to the form. But I'm no stranger to the plant kingdom.

I think it's just as simple as in algebra...wanting to see the solution-the work-not just the answer. I look forward to seeing your photos.
 

Tutu

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No, not at all was I trying to belittle anyone

I know you were not. Just making sure OP didn't felt you did. Thought that maybe he was on the right track and just needed a bit of guidance to understand the crossing of Tobacco plants. Maybe he had a first generation cross and needed to expand on that with future generations. Bob spread it out though. Can't get it much clearer than that. Not sure to what extend OP's response is a reaction to that but hey, China, I agree. Looking forward to seeing some fotos!
 

Hasse SWE

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Yes I hope "Dannyray" see the bigness with FTT and stays on the forum.
He might have something going on. But also that (or similar) thing have been done almost every where sense the human start to grow thing's at all.

I think it's interesting, but I have not the time to do that myself. It's not just to grow and its not easy to see what or if something have helped with the thing..
 

SmokesAhoy

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The variety delgold from Canada was developed as a 3 way cross, if I remember right, between 2 tobacums and a rustica.I posted the PDF somewhere on this site if you can find it. Basically as Bob and Harley say, any stabilized cross is a good deal of work, one utilizing rustica and tobacum even more so. It requires many years and tons of plants with repeated purposeful backcrosses to make the seed predictable.

That is why we all recoil from newbie seeds. We have painstakingly precise strains that we grow that give predictable results. Your seed rolls the genetic roulette wheel and after a season of growing something that could turn out as a complete flop we'd just have wasted a year and have nothing to show but more gray hair.

There are so many stabilized varieties that we are still rediscovering them, and if we bag the seed we could try it again next year.

Enjoy the forum!
 

Hasse SWE

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I just read both, very interesting. I see this as good background literature for some of the crossing I want to do later. Even though I would never be able to test for all those characteristics. Still, crossing seems very very interesting.

I think the second link you provided is a bit off. Should be:

http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/doi/pdf/10.4141/P00-014

That's right. But then you per haps could read this old file:
http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/naldc/download.xhtml?id=IND43969651

It's old but interesting..
 
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