DistillingJim
Well-Known Member
Orientals seem to be the magic ingredient in so many blends. But which ones? What are your favourite Orientals and what do they contribute to your blends?
Which Oriental?
- Thread starter DistillingJim
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Orientals for pipe: Samsun Maden is my favorite followed by Bucak. The latter is often described as a Flue cured but it has a very distinct "Turkish" flavor to it. The reason for the classification (if I remember correctly) is it came from an attempt by the Turks to develop a flue cured variety. The attempt did not work out but somewhere along the way it picked up a very nice Turkish flavor. Others on my list are: Tekkekoy and Duzce. Kavala is rather tasteless but it has a fantastic smell. I'm on the fence about Yenidje. I grew it a few years ago and I'm growing it again this year to give it another try. The first time around it just didn't seem to have much of a taste to it. Honorable mention goes to Bursa. It has a flavor similar to Samsun Maden
As to what do they contribute? Samsun Maden and Bucak yield a very good tasting distinctive taste.
What would you be using Turkish for? cigs, pipe?
As to what do they contribute? Samsun Maden and Bucak yield a very good tasting distinctive taste.
What would you be using Turkish for? cigs, pipe?
DistillingJim
Well-Known Member
For me its all about pipe tobacco. I figure as FDA rules come into effect my favourites are coming under threat so I really want to expand my knowledge on blending.
Most "Oriental" in commercial pipe blends is probably some kind of Izmir / Smyrna these days (I heard a lot is grown in China now, but don't have personal knowledge about that. Italy also seems to be a major producer, with adapted and semi-Oriental varieties.)
I grew that Izmir-plant from Lebanon, and can detect it's incense-like floral quality in many well-known pipe blends, like the Rattrays. Some of the upper leaf is very floral, actually I had some which smelled like jasmine while curing (I asked others to sniff and they confirmed it). Grows very fast.
My Samsun-Maden has a very creamy and salty taste with notes of roasting bread and subtle sweetness. It produces good smoke volume and creamy clouds. I aged some from last year's harvest in the humidor with the cigars, and it rivals the best cigars I know in richness of smoke (without being really cigarish or alkaline). Nicotine is reliably low. The creaminess comes through even if used as a minor blending component.
The most aromatic Oriental I have grown is Prilep (66-9/7). It's also incense-like, but more on a fresh / mint-like / mentholic side. It can be really sweet and seems to smell nice and pipey to others (who are usually not much into tobacco). Nicotine and strength in some leaves can be quite high, and the aroma really overwhelming. I find it mixes very well with Samsun-Maden or Izmir. Beautiful plants, a good producer.
The second most aromatic I know is Baffra Basma (seeds from German Tabakanbau): Pure incense, on the darker side, a very specific aroma my olfactory memory sometimes suddenly brings up now. I was told by men old enough to know pure (and then expensive) Oriental cigarettes that that's THE FRAGRANCE they fondly remember. They mentioned that immediately when I lit the pipe in front of them (not knowing what was in there). Like with Prilep and against the variety description nicotine can be quite high (in some plant parts), although I don't fertilize my Orientals.
Similar to that but even on the "darker", sweeter, caramelic side is Xanthi (seeds from the same source). People comment on the good smell. If it actually can be lit. Most of what I grew is burning slower than slow (it's supposed to be like that for blending purposes, as far I know). There's one exception, that batch was harvested prematurely and burns well, while still having a good amount of "Xanthi"-aroma. It's less prolific for me than other varieties. Xanthi and Prilep plants are close relatives, as far I know, but effectively quite different to me.
Japan-8 still has me a bit puzzled. It looks very similar to Little Dutch, tends to cure very dark, has a wooden note (sometimes too much of it for my taste), but can be very sweet (second to Prilep in sweetness). It's like a licorice and cocoa casing have already been added. I find it tends to burn a bit too fast. I also find the leather-saddle qualities of Little Dutch more attractive if I feel like that flavour profile (and while Little Dutch is not an "Oriental", it is nicely aromatic, too.) I have a plant I brought over the winter, and it has given me already the fifth full-size stalk-harvest. It's very prolific for an Oriental.
Bursa also has an incense smell and can be very sweet. (I find it very different from Samsun-Maden). Nice looking, large plants, large leaves (for an Oriental). Unfortunately I let mine go overripe, which results in a bitey smoke (as I know know). I hope more aging will take care of that. I may grow it again one day and will then harvest at maturity or stalk-harvest early.
Tik-Konlak: I could not find much information about it's origin except that it may be also known as Tikolak, Tik Kulak, Tokolac... For some reason I'm fond of it. Larger plants, larger leaves. Incense-aroma, sweetness, seems to flue-cure well. Reminds me on Jitterbugdude's description of Bucak higher up. If you can only grow one Oriental variety and need a more substantial harvest, you may want to give Tik Konlak a try.
One major factor derived from my own observations is consistency. Many varieties seem to be quite sensitive to differences in soil, micro-climate, irrigation, not only in productivity but also flavour/aroma. I have grown all of the ones above in different spots, and found the most consistent and reliable aroma-wise are Prilep, Baffra Basma and Samsun-Maden. Basically all plants in all locations hold their specific aroma, perhaps a bit more or less, but it's there. They are probably also the ones with the most distinct "Orientalness".
I grew that Izmir-plant from Lebanon, and can detect it's incense-like floral quality in many well-known pipe blends, like the Rattrays. Some of the upper leaf is very floral, actually I had some which smelled like jasmine while curing (I asked others to sniff and they confirmed it). Grows very fast.
My Samsun-Maden has a very creamy and salty taste with notes of roasting bread and subtle sweetness. It produces good smoke volume and creamy clouds. I aged some from last year's harvest in the humidor with the cigars, and it rivals the best cigars I know in richness of smoke (without being really cigarish or alkaline). Nicotine is reliably low. The creaminess comes through even if used as a minor blending component.
The most aromatic Oriental I have grown is Prilep (66-9/7). It's also incense-like, but more on a fresh / mint-like / mentholic side. It can be really sweet and seems to smell nice and pipey to others (who are usually not much into tobacco). Nicotine and strength in some leaves can be quite high, and the aroma really overwhelming. I find it mixes very well with Samsun-Maden or Izmir. Beautiful plants, a good producer.
The second most aromatic I know is Baffra Basma (seeds from German Tabakanbau): Pure incense, on the darker side, a very specific aroma my olfactory memory sometimes suddenly brings up now. I was told by men old enough to know pure (and then expensive) Oriental cigarettes that that's THE FRAGRANCE they fondly remember. They mentioned that immediately when I lit the pipe in front of them (not knowing what was in there). Like with Prilep and against the variety description nicotine can be quite high (in some plant parts), although I don't fertilize my Orientals.
Similar to that but even on the "darker", sweeter, caramelic side is Xanthi (seeds from the same source). People comment on the good smell. If it actually can be lit. Most of what I grew is burning slower than slow (it's supposed to be like that for blending purposes, as far I know). There's one exception, that batch was harvested prematurely and burns well, while still having a good amount of "Xanthi"-aroma. It's less prolific for me than other varieties. Xanthi and Prilep plants are close relatives, as far I know, but effectively quite different to me.
Japan-8 still has me a bit puzzled. It looks very similar to Little Dutch, tends to cure very dark, has a wooden note (sometimes too much of it for my taste), but can be very sweet (second to Prilep in sweetness). It's like a licorice and cocoa casing have already been added. I find it tends to burn a bit too fast. I also find the leather-saddle qualities of Little Dutch more attractive if I feel like that flavour profile (and while Little Dutch is not an "Oriental", it is nicely aromatic, too.) I have a plant I brought over the winter, and it has given me already the fifth full-size stalk-harvest. It's very prolific for an Oriental.
Bursa also has an incense smell and can be very sweet. (I find it very different from Samsun-Maden). Nice looking, large plants, large leaves (for an Oriental). Unfortunately I let mine go overripe, which results in a bitey smoke (as I know know). I hope more aging will take care of that. I may grow it again one day and will then harvest at maturity or stalk-harvest early.
Tik-Konlak: I could not find much information about it's origin except that it may be also known as Tikolak, Tik Kulak, Tokolac... For some reason I'm fond of it. Larger plants, larger leaves. Incense-aroma, sweetness, seems to flue-cure well. Reminds me on Jitterbugdude's description of Bucak higher up. If you can only grow one Oriental variety and need a more substantial harvest, you may want to give Tik Konlak a try.
One major factor derived from my own observations is consistency. Many varieties seem to be quite sensitive to differences in soil, micro-climate, irrigation, not only in productivity but also flavour/aroma. I have grown all of the ones above in different spots, and found the most consistent and reliable aroma-wise are Prilep, Baffra Basma and Samsun-Maden. Basically all plants in all locations hold their specific aroma, perhaps a bit more or less, but it's there. They are probably also the ones with the most distinct "Orientalness".
ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
I agree with you on Japan 8. I think GRIN made a mistake on labeling it an oriental. I think it's really dark air cured.
Cigar
Well-Known Member
Great write-up Planter!! I have several oriental seeds that were given to me over last few seasons from this forum which am very grateful for..I have few of those you mentioned here.seems the most favored so far seems to be the Samsun maden by several people who have grown it..question is in my short list of seeds I seem to gathered two types of Samson...Samsun Maden and black Sea Samsun..was wondering if same or different types?? btw if interested in my list is:
Izmir..Scantic..Bursa..Izmir-Ozbas..Ottoman..Xanti-yaka ..Prilep P66 9/7..{Samsun Maden}..{black sea Samsun}
Cigar
Izmir..Scantic..Bursa..Izmir-Ozbas..Ottoman..Xanti-yaka ..Prilep P66 9/7..{Samsun Maden}..{black sea Samsun}
Cigar
They are the same. GRIN has 2 Samsun Maden varieties available. One has a sucrose-ester level of about 7-ish (going from memory), the other has zero sucrose-esters. I suspect that most of the Samsun Maden grown is the one that contains sucrose-esters because I sent out tons of the seed to many many people many years ago.
All of the above comments are a good read.
Samsun grown from seed provided by New Hope Seed produces a much more vigorous plant (6'+) and larger leaves than Samsun-Maden. It is grown with wider spacing (typical "American" spacing), and yields a more potent leaf. I haven't grown that for several years.
Prilep 66-9/7 is incredibly productive. It's one of the few Orientals that I've successfully flue-cured, with the result being a bright yellow, delicate, highly aromatic leaf. It also sun-cures easily, yielding a redder leaf. Although I love Xanthi for pipe blends, the Prilep 66-9/7 gives me more Oriental bang for the buck.
Most Basma types (e.g. Prilep, Xanthi and Izmir [Smyrna]) do a decent job in pipe blending.
I consider the cultural methods to be the most determinate of the final leaf characteristics.
Samsun grown from seed provided by New Hope Seed produces a much more vigorous plant (6'+) and larger leaves than Samsun-Maden. It is grown with wider spacing (typical "American" spacing), and yields a more potent leaf. I haven't grown that for several years.
Prilep 66-9/7 is incredibly productive. It's one of the few Orientals that I've successfully flue-cured, with the result being a bright yellow, delicate, highly aromatic leaf. It also sun-cures easily, yielding a redder leaf. Although I love Xanthi for pipe blends, the Prilep 66-9/7 gives me more Oriental bang for the buck.
Most Basma types (e.g. Prilep, Xanthi and Izmir [Smyrna]) do a decent job in pipe blending.
I consider the cultural methods to be the most determinate of the final leaf characteristics.
- minimal fertilizer
- close spacing
- leaving un-topped
- sun-curing
Cigar
Well-Known Member
After the leaves {oriental} are sun-cured are they good to go or do the have to be "fermented" like other tobacco burley/cigar leaves?
Cigar
Cigar
Most Oriental leaf grown in Turkey and Greece is allowed to go through a sweat in the warehouse. I kiln my sun-cured.
Bob
Bob
I shall see. I'm going to grow that "Samsoun" Tabakanbau sells, which seems to have a petiole leaf, not unsimilar to Bursa. The Samsun-Maden leaf I already know (ARS-GRIN PI 494161) is stalkless.
Samsun, Samsun-Maden, Bafra, Bursa and Trabzon are all petiolate (exhibit a leaf stem), with a generally heart-shaped or spade-shaped leaf.
Bob
Bob
Unfortunately I don't have a photo of an alive plant at hand now, so I quickly pulled a cured leaf out. Mine has "some kind" of stem, but with some narrow leaf lamina reaching till the stalk of the plant (not as wide as in basma types, though). On the plant it was even more obvious than on the dry leaf (due to shrinking and some inward folding). In the case of Bursa I had to clip and discard the obvious stems, here I didn't have to bother. Also, leaves are a rather lengthy spade-shape. In the few pictures I have seen the other "Samsoun" is heart-shaped, I thought they look quite different.
To my eyes, that does not appear to be Samsun of any variety.
Bob
Bob
Alpine
Moderator
It closely resembles my last year Celikhan... Or this year Alma Ata 315... How high was the plant?
Pier
Pier
Bob
Alpine
Moderator
Sibilline post Bob... Is the picture to demonstrate that Planter's leaf is not Celikhan???
Pier
I'm curious about your guess!
Pier
I'm curious about your guess!
The picture is intended to show that Planter's leaf has the same general form as Çelikhan. I was agreeing with you.
Bob
Some are a bit shorter, more oval. I find it actually quite similar to the one Istanbulin posted here before:
http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/1433-Black-Sea-Region-strains
Some of my Samsun-Maden plants (tall, > 3ft or 1,20m) compared to Japan-8 (the small ones):
(Samsun-Maden plants in the ground, not in pots, were the same. Japan-8 grew later much bigger.)
ARS-Grin (the seed source):
https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/accessiondetail.aspx?1389097
Comparably "Black Sea Samsun":
from http://nwtseeds.com/Black Sea Samsun.htm
http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/1433-Black-Sea-Region-strains
Some of my Samsun-Maden plants (tall, > 3ft or 1,20m) compared to Japan-8 (the small ones):
(Samsun-Maden plants in the ground, not in pots, were the same. Japan-8 grew later much bigger.)
ARS-Grin (the seed source):
https://npgsweb.ars-grin.gov/gringlobal/accessiondetail.aspx?1389097
Comparably "Black Sea Samsun":
from http://nwtseeds.com/Black Sea Samsun.htm
This image, captured from your first photo of the potted plant, shows the petiole clearly. So I can accept that it's Samsun-Maden. The cured leaves are more difficult to identify.
Bob
Bob
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