Some questions- dip

[Copenhagen Forever]

I'm have a hard time with this search engine. Can't seem to make it work. I read something about "lye water", tried to search for some info and it returns that my "search is to simple" or returns all posts with the word "water". I have some questions, if you wouldn't mind helping.

Do you use lye water instead of ammonium carbonate? When I read the post, there was a link to how to make lye water and I bookmarked it. I can make this and If I could use it instead of ammonium carbonate, it would save me money.
If it's a yes;
What kind of wood should I burn to get the potency needed?

I noticed that you all are mixing different types of tobacco to make your dip. Virginia, Dark air cured, fire cured and some types I've never heard of.
Does this make a better flavor and more comparable with Copenhagen?
I tell ya, the dark fire cured I bought 4 years ago has an overwhelming smokey flavored. I still have some left. My batch #6 that I put out in the shed had a 1/2 oz. of fire cured to 2 1/2 oz of air cured. I've had good luck with my latest batches without it that I'm hesitant to add anymore to my experiments.
That brings me to the liquid smoke flavoring. I saw a post were someone was using Virginia fire cured. Maybe it's mellower that the stuff I bought.
Liquid smoke or fire cured, That is the question.

 

[squeezyjohn]

Re: Some questions

Hi again,

The I have only ever used the lye water in my recipes for snus and not dip (although similar there are some quite big differences in how they're made) - I don't make my own or use any old-skool lye water prepared from wood ashes, I only use a bought preparation called lye water from chinese supermarkets which is food-grade and a 43% potassium carbonate solution in water (the chinese use this to make their noodles springy!) I use it to replace Sodium Carbonate that is specified in many snus recipes. Ammonium carbonate is altogether different and a far weaker alkali than either the sodium or potassium carbonate and my guess is that it's used as a flavour enhancer or stabiliser of some sort in Copenhagen. I think the original lye water used for making soap, early oral tobacco and for boiling pretzels in may have been prepared from wood ashes ... but I draw the line at using stuff like that and putting it in my mouth.

Every different tobacco (variety, where it was grown and how it was cured all contributes to different tastes) has something different to offer ... when you're really tasting stuff, no two burleys or virginias are the same even between years from the same farm ... blending is how the professionals get around this. For oral tobacco you need to take in to consideration the bitterness as well as the aroma and of course the strength of the tobacco.

Fire cured - yep the stuff out there is pretty strong and smoky - it is possible to get less smoky grades of fire-cured tobacco but in my experience the smoking market likes it good and smoky which means you have to be very careful with how much you add to your blend. Liquid smoke is much more controllable, but frankly doesn't have the authentic smoked taste I think you're after. Also there are a hell of a lot of different brands and flavours out there that you may have to try before you might hit on the right one!

I think from your other posts it looks like you may have been more successful than any of us here in re-creating Cope which is a very complicated and protected blend of ingredients. If anything we're going to end up learning more from you on this one.

 

[RyanM22]

Re: Some questions

Definitely go with the true fire cured. I made my first batch going for a Cope-ish taste using mostly Fire-Cured, and a little Burley Red Tip, and some Wild Turkey American Honey (ammonia salt, glycerin, little water also). Came out excellent after cooking in the oven.

I only had a little left, so I decided to add some raw Fire Cure leaf to try and get a little more out of it. It had that beef jerky taste which you mentioned in another post. Not a good taste for dip. So the cooking seemed to really change the smoky taste, for the better.

I can't comment on the lye water, but I really do like using the ammonium carbonate

 

[Copenhagen Forever]

Re: Some questions

Hi again,


I think from your other posts it looks like you may have been more successful than any of us here in re-creating Cope which is a very complicated and protected blend of ingredients. If anything we're going to end up learning more from you on this one.

Squeezy, You give me to much credit. I don't want anyone to think that I discovered the great secret cope has been hiding for 200 years. Maybe your familiar with "Longhorn natural" dip. If Copenhagen is comparable with 50 year old wine, Longhorn would be like Vintage Tuesday wine and that would be what I've made here. I would like to get a lot closer. My stuff is usable.

 

[SmokesAhoy]

Re: Some questions

The trick with these flavors is there are many, and used in such tiny amounts as to be subliminal.

When we make things small scale it's next to impossible to very the amount to be the same.

Make something you like and enjoy. You might be the person that unlocks the home prep of Copenhagen so I don't want to discourage you but thousands have really given it a good go already with no success. However, everyone has managed to make a more refined product by copying the favorite.

 

[squeezyjohn]

Re: Some questions

The trick with these flavors is there are many, and used in such tiny amounts as to be subliminal.

When we make things small scale it's next to impossible to vary the amount to be the same.

^^ this!

 

[Copenhagen Forever]

I guess starting with the tobacco I buy will be my next step. Back 4 years ago I bought some samples from another place after giving up on the fire cured. By the way- I just now learned of WLT and I like the prices. Anyway, The samples of dark air cured and burly sat for 4 years. I used it for batch #2 and even though it was the soy sauce recipe, There wasn't a certain objectionable flavor there that is now in the 1 season stuff I just bought. Longhorn
I'll start by buying some older tobacco and three different types. I read something, I think it was a post started by POGreen, He used Virgina, Virginia fire cured and something else. Maybe I'll try some older dark air cured. I got to find that post...

Thanks SmokesAhoy

 

[Copenhagen Forever]

Re: Some questions

Definitely go with the true fire cured. I made my first batch going for a Cope-ish taste using mostly Fire-Cured, and a little Burley Red Tip, and some Wild Turkey American Honey (ammonia salt, glycerin, little water also). Came out excellent after cooking in the oven.

I only had a little left, so I decided to add some raw Fire Cure leaf to try and get a little more out of it. It had that beef jerky taste which you mentioned in another post. Not a good taste for dip. So the cooking seemed to really change the smoky taste, for the better.

Was the tobacco older stuff?

 

[RyanM22]

Aged? I can't say for sure since I didn't grow it, but I'd lean towards yes

 

[Copenhagen Forever]

I want to buy some tobacco and make a blend that might get me closer to copenhagen. I have plenty of dark air cured and enough fire cured for now. I guess I'll buy some burly and I see a lot of you mention virginia. I see 2 different types and I'm not sure which one I should buy. Ah.... Which one do I buy?

 

[RyanM22]

Burley over VA, for sure

 

[Copenhagen Forever]

I get coupon books from Freshcope. There like a foldout poster or centerfold with the coupons. Some of them have said that cope is aged 4 years and I have got cans that say it, I believe inside the cover. If it's aged in oak barrels, how would you think they keep it from molding for that period of time?

 

[CobGuy]

If it's aged in oak barrels, how would you think they keep it from molding for that period of time?

Salt and other mold inhibitors most likely.