Buy Tobacco Leaf Online | Whole Leaf Tobacco

shredder review

Status
Not open for further replies.

larryccf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
196
Points
43
First, for the record, i'm still climbing the learning curve in whole leaf tobacco, so take anything / everything stated below with a grain of salt.

I went looking for a shredder, after researching folks experiences on the web, it was down to the Powermatic S and one of the manual shredders on tobaccoandmachines.com . I ended up buying the G120 from MC Swiat http://www.tobaccoandmachines.com/index.php?s=produkt&id=51

Main reasons were the 120mm length of the rollers combined with the 32mm diameter of the rollers. Most of the small hand crank (but power adaptable) shredders offered use 21 or 22mm diameter rollers, and i'd noticed the "el cheapo" (no offense to WLT meant, don actually said that's what they called it there at WLT), when it shredded would throw quite a few strands that were 1/8" to almost 1/4" in width, and ranging from 3/4" to 2" in length. I suspected that was occurring when the leaf going thru the rollers would fold over 3 & 4 times, and that thickness was causing the rollers to deflect outward from each other, whether from bowing outward or shifting in the axis openings in the sideplates, would deflect enough to let a small section pass thru without being shredded. So the 32mm diameter rollers with the rigid bearing mount i hoped would correct that issue. It did - i've shredded about 3 lbs now, and it's performance has been flawless, i haven't seen one strand like described above with el cheapo. Strand cut width is .8mm btw.

The vendor, Mc Swiat (tobaccoandmachines.com), i'll give high marks to in terms of integrity, communications and general svc attitude - he demonstrated pretty decent honesty on two occasions. The second one was when i accidentally sent a 2nd payment (via PayPal) by mistake. When i initially inquired about his RS120 machine, he emailed back that he recommended the G120, with comments describing his "semi-professional" customers preferring it over all his other offerings (more on "semi-professional" customers later). He indicated he'd email two separate invoices via paypal, one for the RS120 and one for the G120, so i could pay for the one i decided on. Obviously, i went with the G120 and when i paid, i noticed the PayPal system indicated funds would not be released to the seller for 45 days. When the transaction was over, the seller had acted or performed decently enough that i thought i'd go into paypal to authorize an earlier release of his funds. I accidentally (speed reading) clikked on the "send pmt" for the other invoice. The instant i did, i realized i'd screwed up, contacted paypal, and being the logical lovely payment organization they are (sarcasm), they send i nor they could retract the payment, that the seller would have to "refund" it. He did so promptly, within 4 hours of my email to him. BTW, when i asked Pawel (the owner) if he would deduct the VAT for an export sale, he had no issue. The price reduction almost covered the UPS shipping costs, which were quoted as 45 euros - this is a heavy machine for it's size, weight is 5 kg or nearly 11 pounds.

The positives - the unit does employ sealed bearings, and actually uses Japanese manufactured shielded bearings (NSK). There's a pretty serious expense difference between japanese & chinese manufactured bearings, with the Jap bearings generally running nearly twice the cost of chinese - but the jap bearings are still the preferred choice - i'm in manufacturing, and from time to time have to source bearings for different projects.

The unit's operation is very very smooth, and between it's weight (11 lbs) and that long handle, you almost don't need to mount it to the table. Key word there is "almost".

The hopper is pretty useful size, not too large or tall, and surprisingly (to me anyway) the hopper is fabricated from the same 5mm SS as the sideplates.

The G120 - first the obvious shortcoming, isn't provided with any means to attach it to a table or counter top, but i wasn't worried about that, i have plenty of aluminum angle which would be easy enough to cut & drill. The RS120 does come with small plastic blocks to anchor it but i doubt their longevity.

I can't state this is a shortcoming, as it has an advantage as well, but the handle is long, long enough that the machine has to be mounted close to the edge of the stand otherwise the handle won't clear the table top. The advantage is it gives the leverage to make cranking a breeze, no straining whatsoever. Another option would be to mount the G120 on a couple of pcs of 3/4" plywood, as that should raise it enough. It makes me wonder what the cranking action is like on the RS120 as it has a shorter handle that will clear the table.

The first criticism - the sideplates are shear cut, in a sheet brake - think like a heavy heavy duty paper cutter, with the blade much thicker, and cutting by sheer force. Perfect for this application, but it leaves a sharp rough edge.
When i first opened the package and put the unit on my desk, just moving it around a bit, scratched the hell out of my desk. It wouldn't have taken much (and should have been) to have dressed the edges - it didn't take me 5 minutes with a file to clean the edges but it should not have shipped like that.

2nd criticism - because the elec motor i have to motorize this unit rotates counter clockwise, and this unit is meant or assembled for clockwise operation, i had to swap the rollers so the one with the 8mm allen head was in the rear position, so it would operate counter-clockwise. To remove you have to remove the bolts or threaded rods running from one sideplate to the other, and then pull the rollers out. The fit thru the bearings was nearly what i'd call an interference fit, ie real tight almost requiring a press. I used a 4 oz ball-pein hammer (i'd rather tap a bunch of times with light taps than a few with a heavy hammer. Well, it took 30-40 taps with the 4 oz hammer, and when it was fully out, i noticed the 8mm socket wouldn't mount onto the 8mm allen head driveshaft or stub axle - the metal was soft enough to mallet or mushroom out. That's an indication the rollers were not heat treated (heat treatment is used to harden the metal, and depending on the alloy you can dial in the hardening desired, depending on the application. I asked the seller if he could identify the specific SS alloy as i wanted to have the rollers heat treated and he responded that if heat treated the rollers would not "go together" again. Basically the heat treat would warp the rollers. We've had a couple of alloys that had a similiar tendency to warp during heat treat, but the solution was to source the metal already hardened or to send it out for heat treat first, then machine it. The problem is it adds serious cost because machining hardened metal is slower and more costly than soft metal. I would think hardening would be necessary for the cutting bands to hold their edge but I don't know that these rollers need heat treatment for certain - i remember talking to the tech at zico about the powermatic S, and he indicated the "star shaped" cutters didn't have sharp edges. He mentioned they didn't replace them that often but occasionally there was a problem when the machine suffered a jam. So it's entirely possible these rollers will be fine as are. Pawel, the seller, said his "semi-professional" customers go thru rollers once or twice a year. I surmised from a few of his emails, there's a cottage industry of folks making "tax free" cigarettes that i suppose they sell in flea markets, to friends or whoever. As they'd be shredding serious amounts of tobacco, i suspect i'll see a decent life from this machine.

3rd criticism - while on the one side of the unit, it was only a matter of getting the axle stubs out of the bearings, on the other side you've got a gear mounted on each axle stub that has to come off before you can pull (or tap) the roller out. The gears are held on by small circlips which wasn't an issue. But the axle stubs and gears had a keyway - here's the criticism. Rather than use off the shelf hardened woodruff keys, they apparently went with a custom rectangular key that was simply soft metal and dimensioned to a rod they either machine or source locally. And the apparent installation is to insert a length of that rod into the slot formed by the channel cut into the shaft and the opening on the gear by tapping it in, and then simply bending it up/down a number of times until it broke off. The only way to bend it when it's in that keyway is up/down, and it breaks on the top surface even with the surface of the gear. The problem is it made getting the gears off a little difficult - luckily i had a gear puller perfect for the task, but the effort or strain on the gear puller was at it's limit. Woodruff keys are not expensive - i mike'd the slots and went online and couldn't find a woodruff key sized propery for the slots so i re-used the rod. The rods do work though, but if the typical owner trying to replace his rollers after they've worn, will risk messing things up prying with a screwdriver or trying to drive them out with a hammer - this wanted more force than the 4 oz hammer could deliver.

Would i buy it again - yeah. I believe it will give me a serious life based on what i learned from zico (powermatic S) and Pawel's indications.

I don't know the G120 was worth the price, given there are two 100mm shredders employing sealed bearings that are priced at approximate 100 euros. With reduction in price with VAT backed out, shipped i'd expect the delivered in hand price would be in the $110-$115 range but neither of those use 32mm diameter rollers.

Later on today, when i'm in the shop i'll try to take a couple pictures of the gears" keyways.

I'll also post a few shots of the motorizing project - don't expect anything too professional looking, this first build is in wood, and what i call an evaluation build, too see what in the layout i want to change before fabricating in metal.
 

riverstone

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jun 16, 2016
Messages
130
Points
18
Location
Hikutaia. NI. New Zealand
larry
It is an easy task to reverse the rotation of an electric motor. Definitely easier than what you had to do. If you Google it, you will have every motor known to man covered.
 

larryccf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
196
Points
43
wish i'd have known - electrically i'm illiterate. I left working on cars in the early 70s as electronic brain boxes were coming into common useage

tks for the tip
 

larryccf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
196
Points
43
promised some shots - i couldn't get a decent shot of the keyway like i hoped

the small white table top has been re-purposed about 3 times now - it last served as a small top for a stand that held the computer's UPS up off the floor

again, don't judge too harshly - this is an evaluation build. It has a stand that holds it up off the table so i can slip a tub under it, and i still have to build a cover for the pulleys. But i'll run it on this stand for a few months to see if this layout works, ergonomically or convenience of use, or if i want to change it around some.

I went with a single stage pulley system as i didn't want to buy 3 pulleys (motor came with one already on it). The small pulley is 1.66" and the large one is 10", with the motor turning at 1470 (assuming it's still up to the specs on the mfgr's label), the rollers are turning at 238 rpm.

and what might serve some as a cheap source for a motor, this motor is from a cheap cheap bench top sander i bought 20+ years ago, and has run a lot of work. I bought it for a single job for $55 at harbor freight, and if it survived that job i would have been happy. That job was to polish 1,000 thread protectors. I had taken the sanding disk off and made an adaptor to hold the thread protector while the kid working it polished it. That job grew to 10,000 protectors - then i lent it to a friend at a machine shop for a couple of months - when i needed it back, he liked it so much he ended up buying one. The current generation of that bench top belt sander is $63 and has a couple of extra features, but the convenience of the motor coming already wired for 110V plug and rocker switch was a nice freebie. http://www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-x-36-inch-belt-6-inch-disc-sander-97181.html There's actually a lot of power tools there that would have an electric motor to cannabalize - this was just the cheapest. Almost forgot, the motor is 110V, 1/2 hp, 375 watts and as i stated above turns at 1470 rpm. For anyone looking to build their own, google for "pulley rpm calculator" - there are a number of sites that will tell you the final rpm of the large pulley once you've plugged in both pulleys' diameters and the motor's rpm. One actually also gave me the belt length to order.

I also thought about cannabalising one of the old drill presses we have in a corner of the shop not being used. The rpms on both were similiar to this motor. I just couldn't believe the $300+ prices for elec motors these days

i haven't bored the mounting holes for the motor's base yet, waiting on the belt pulley to come it so i can position the motor at the proper distance
SHREDDER 1.jpg

SHREDDER 2.jpg

SHREDDER 3.jpg
 

burge

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 11, 2014
Messages
1,573
Points
113
Location
Alberta
Looks good lets see it in action and the shred. I like the idea of the hopper its easier when you have threshed tobacco
 

larryccf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
196
Points
43
1st video(s) i've ever taken to post, and for whatever reason the video seems choppy -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOr0TGLofSo&feature=youtu.be

and of the tobacco shredded

http://vid816.photobucket.com/albums/zz81/vze86qtl/VID_20170226_163948_zpszff5dkf3.mp4

it's definitely faster, much faster and easier than cranking manually
but the machine is turning a little too fast - i might have to re-engineer it with a two stage pulley system to bring the speed down some more - right now it's turning, according to the calculations and assuming the motor is operating at full specs, 239 rpm, and 200 rpm seems to be the target speed for most of the motorized units on the web

on the up side, it took no time to shred 1/2 lb of WLT's 1st priming leaf

and yeah, i need to make a cover for the pulleys
 

Jitterbugdude

Moderator
Founding Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
4,266
Points
113
Location
Northeast Maryland
As Tony the Tiger would say..... Looks Greeeaaaaaat!
Good job.
My original home built shredder was a 3 pulley system because I didn't want to spend a large sum of money for a gigantic pulley. What size is that big pulley?
 

larryccf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
196
Points
43
10" diameter, 4L pulley

Mcmaster.com is a good source for all kinds of items, they're to manufacturers & machine shops what sears & roebuck used to be to the commercial market back in the 60s & 70s - have everything you might need - prices are retail but service is great, I've ordered stuff on monday and had it by Wednesday, shipped UPS ground. That pulley ran $35, belt ran $7.xx, one stop shopping
 

larryccf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
196
Points
43
before they set up their website, their print catalog was 3500+ pages and hard to get a copy (their requirement was your shop had to be D&B rated and have 50+ employees). I always had a copy of the previous year's catalog and would spend hours in the evenings just reviewing what they carried, i still remember retiring for the evening with my neck hurting from going thru it. But even if what you're looking for isn't in their catalog, ie odd bearing size or odd bolt, you can call in and they will find it and call you back with a quote
 

larryccf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
196
Points
43
thanks - after asking it occurred to me to google it, and found you can't get there from here
 

Orson Carte

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2016
Messages
246
Points
28
Location
New Zealand
Firstly, may I point out that I have no particular expertise in this field - I am a mad tinkerer.
I'm also going through the exercise of motorising a similar shredder.
At the present time I have mine powered by a direct (inline) drive through a small (cheap socket-set type) universal to a variable speed (500w) drill. It works reasonably well, as I have a simple mechanism to enable the motor to be sped up a little if it starts to stall. The inherent difficulty is (as all of you will know) that at 200rpm a small electric motor has very little torque under load.
Gearing down an electric motor by using pulleys is a relatively simple matter and it will work. However, the arrangement, as shown, may not work for as long as you might hope.
The centrifugal force of a large pulley working on a relatively small driveshaft and unsophisticated bearing (on the shredder) is going to be pretty hard on that bearing bearing. I doubt that the installed bearing is designed for it. For this reason I avoided any arrangement with pulleys - believing (as an amateur engineer) that a direct inline connection was far kinder to the mechanism.
I do hope to solve the problem as soon as I can lay my hands on a suitable (old) meat grinder. A shredder could easily be hooked up in direct drive with one of these. I already own a grinder (.75 hp, with a reduction gear to give an output of 100rpm) but I'm reluctant to cannibalise it right now - I still also make my own sausages.
 

larryccf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
196
Points
43
i think i understand what you're saying, but i think one of the factors would be the weight or mass of the pulley - and this 10" pulley is zinc and fairly light, plus mounted on a shaft that's stablized at the other end in another bearing.

My only objection to a direct drive design is the need for some sort of coupling that would cushion any shock loads - that's where the pulley system shines, especially with my belt left loose, if the system jams or there's some sort of mechanical failure, the belt will slip. The other advantage i saw in a large pulley, if there's a jam, the pulley serves as an easy handle to reverse the rollers slightly.

i'll ask one of the engineers i work with re the centrifugal forces. thanks for the heads up
 

Orson Carte

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2016
Messages
246
Points
28
Location
New Zealand
I'm certainly not trying to upset your enterprise but by way of, hopefully, clearer explanation; a transmission belt (or chain, too) can only 'pull' in one line of direction. It does not 'push' from the other side. Therefore, the force is always going to be acting on the same, very specific part of the bearing and the fact that there is another bearing, at the other end of the shaft does not change that.
The beauty of a direct drive is that the transmission force bears evenly on the shaft around the entire circumference of the bearing.
 

Jitterbugdude

Moderator
Founding Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
4,266
Points
113
Location
Northeast Maryland
What you guys are beating around the bush is... Torque. A 1 hp motor will put out roughly 1 ft- lb of torque. Mounted with a pulley system the best you could hope for is 1 ft- lb but in reality when you take into account the small slip of the belt you are even less than that. A 1 hp motor with a 1750 rpm rating direct coupled to a 10:1 gear reducer will give you 10 ft- lbs of torque. With that you could shred anything you desire.

Your bearing should be fine at 200 rpm. You should check it occasionally to see if it has grease in it and if not an rs type bearing, check for dirt.
 

larryccf

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 28, 2016
Messages
196
Points
43
Orson Carte - no worries, you're not upsetting my "enterprise", i'm not thin skinned. As an fyi, i avoided geared motors simply because of the cost - what i found cost more than i've got in the entire unit, but then again, the motor came free from a 20 yr old bench sander that refuses to die, and paid for itself a long time ago
 

Jitterbugdude

Moderator
Founding Member
Joined
May 22, 2011
Messages
4,266
Points
113
Location
Northeast Maryland
As an fyi, i avoided geared motors simply because of the cost - what i found cost more than i've got in the entire unit, but then again, the motor came free from a 20 yr old bench sander that refuses to die, and paid for itself a long time ago

Here's where we need more emojicons. I wanted to give you a "thumbs up" but there is no symbol for it, so..... thumbs up!
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top