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What, in your opinion, is the most potent oriental?

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bsthebenster

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I'm looking at new oriental varieties at wholeleaftobacco at leafonly. I personally like the taste of the Izmir I got last time, but would like something with a bit more flavour. I could just use more of it, I suppose, but I'd rather not take a hit to my overall nicotine levels. Does anyone know of a particularly flavourful oriental I could use to get a bit more of a flavour punch in my blend?
 

SmokesAhoy

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Some Orientals can get very high nicotine levels when topped, spaced far apart and fertilized heavily.

None are grown that way commercially that I'm aware of.
 

ChinaVoodoo

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The bursa I grew in a greenhouse with two foot ish spacing was pushing the 9'ceiling for a couple months before I picked it. Long story short. It has lots of both flavor and nicotine and gives me hiccups.
It didn't taste nothing like Izmir though.
 

Planter

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What deluxestogie said...

But, Prilep 66-9/7 tends to be a bit higher in nicotine than other Orientals. I once had a plant which grew for some reason exceptionally large leaves, still had an amazing aroma, but was really potent (did I just see the word hiccups... On another note, my small-leaved, densely planted and sun-cured Prilep from last year is low in nicotine, smooth and really sweet.)
Samsoun from Tabakanbau is supposed to be stronger according to their description, if I remember right some people there have reported that it turned out to be the strongest tobacco they had ever smoked. (I only have tested lower leaves so far, and it is very flavourful for sure.)
 

BigBonner

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Some Orientals can get very high nicotine levels when topped, spaced far apart and fertilized heavily.

None are grown that way commercially that I'm aware of.

Really
I grew about 4/10 th's of a acre last year of Bursa . Heavy rain took a lot of them down and leaned a lot of what was left standing . My samsun (1/10th acre) right beside of My Bursa did the same thing . Both are not very pretty looking leaf and are rough looking . I shredded a little of both a while back . I need to get back and try them again to see if flavors have changed and compare nicotine .

Who would make a good tester for Bursa and Samsun , Rough looking and grown as organic ?
 

deluxestogie

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Chemical composition of this tobacco is variable and depends greatly on conditions of growing and applied agrotechnical measures. The average values of major chemical compounds range within the following limits: nicotine 1.0 % (irrigated) - 2.30 % (non-irrigated)...
It seems that at least Prilep produces way more nicotine if it is not irrigated.

Bob
 

deluxestogie

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For decades, the tobacco industry has regarded Samsun as a single variety, and Samsun-Maden as a distinctly different variety. istanbulin has stated that just "Samsun" is not a varietal name, any more than "Kentucky." Apparently in Turkey, there are many named variants of Samsun that have been ignored by Big Tobacco.

So far as I can determine, the prefix of "Black Sea" to Samsun is the product of an on-line vendor, and has no specific meaning (since the city of Samsun is always on the coast of the Black Sea). The use of the name, "Black Sea Samsun" by nwtseeds seems to simply follow the naming convention of nwtseeds' original source for the seed.

I suspect that the Samsoun from tabakanbau is pretty much the same as any Samsun.

So, it's all fairly confusing. My assumption is that, with the exception of Samsun-Maden, all Samsun (or Samsoun, or Black Sea Samsun) is the same variety, and that the named sub-varieties that istanbulin cites are likely the same Samsun grown in specific districts. I may be wrong. I should also note that the Samsun and Samsun-Maden that I have grown are just barely distinguishable from one another, with the Samsun-Maden being slightly more delicate.

Given the widespread practice of open pollination of Oriental tobaccos, there could certainly be many subtle variants.

Bob
 

DistillingJim

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Apologies for the punctuation on that last post, occasionally the forum wont let me use space bars
 

Charly

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Thanks Bob for the explanation, so in short : they may be the same, but they can be sublty different :D

Jim : the forum often prevents me from using the space bar when I click on the "Reply" button, but I found a workaround : I simply push on the "Enter" button of my keyboard one or two times, then I use my mouse or my arrow key to jump one line above the end of the message and Bingo : I can use space again :)
 

Planter

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Is there something special about the "samsoun" from Tabakanbau ? Or is it the same as Black Sea Samsun (http://nwtseeds.com/Black Sea Samsun.htm) ?


Nice ! :)

I have no practical experience with that "Black Sea Samsun".
I have grown "Samsun-Maden" (ARS-GRIN PI 494161) and more recently "Samsoun Orient" from Tabakanbau. They look and taste quite different.
My air-cured Samsun-Maden has a distinct flavour, not much sweetness and is very low in nicotine (I have grown it for two seasons in different spots - contrary to Prilep 66-9/7 or Baffra Basma not one leaf ever had a surprising nicotine punch in the pipe).
"Samsoun Orient" is said to be much stronger than other Orientals, actually stronger than any Virginia strain Tabakanbau offers, and the comments in their forum seem to confirm that. I have only tried some lower air-cured leaf so far (the good stuff will undergo some natural aging). My first impression: It smokes like a very good Virginia with the perfume of grandfather's aftershave. It's more "bright" and "floral" in aroma and much sweeter than my Samsun-Maden. And even the weakest "Samsoun" leaves have definitely more nicotine.
"Samsoun" also burns perfectly (Tabakanbau mentions that in their description), "Samsun-Maden" is not far off, in my experience. Both are (even unblended) basically bite-free in the pipe.
pgrdeu.genres.de has two Samsoun (SUC154 and SUC151) from the agricultural technology centre Augustenberg in their database (there are also Japan 2 and Japan 4 in addition to the Japan 8 Tabakanbau is selling). I read once somewhere that all these strains were selected for commercial growing in central Europe. So they may not be the same (anymore) as Samsun from Samsun in Turkey.
I got interested in "Samsoun Orient" as the Tabakanbau-forum generally agrees that that's quite the perfect tobacco to grow (while I already knew that their "Baffra Basma" is very good and interesting). Although I don't care for nicotine my few test plants tell me that it may be indeed THE ONE Oriental which brings it all to the table. But then Deluxestogie or one of his allies will introduce the next temptation in their grow blogs... Also, not to forget that individual taste and climate matter, so what's cutting the cake for me may not do it for you, after all.
 

Charly

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Thank you Planter for these precious informations.
It's very interesting to know that there are different "samsun"/"samsoun" tobaccos that offers different flavor profile and nicotine content !
I was planning on trying "Samsun" in my 2018's crop, and I might end up trying "Black Sea Samsun", "Samsun-Maden" and "Samsoun Orient" :D
 

deluxestogie

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Basma is a geographic place. Basma is also a shape of Oriental leaf--one that is a pointed ellipse, with no petiole (a portion of leaf stem relatively free of lamina, adjacent to the stalk). Bafra, like Samsun, is a "basibali" leaf shape--generally heart-shaped, with a distinct petiole. Sometimes it is named "kabakalok," to recognize the fringe on the petiole.

TurkishTobacco_Leaves.jpg


I suppose "Bafra Basma" could be a Bafra that was developed or grown near Basma, but otherwise, the name makes no sense to me.

Bob
 

Charly

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Thanks for these precisions Bob,
I feel that the "orientals" is a big mess.... with so many names re-used for different strains/categories/origins... it's hard to understand clearly what is what...
I have read many times the very good posts of Istanbulin and Bob about orientals, but I am still lost...
I will have to read these post again I think :D
 

greenmonster714

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Thanks for these precisions Bob,
I feel that the "orientals" is a big mess.... with so many names re-used for different strains/categories/origins... it's hard to understand clearly what is what...
I have read many times the very good posts of Istanbulin and Bob about orientals, but I am still lost...
I will have to read these post again I think :D

I gotta agree with ya Charly. I guess we just grow them and figure out what we like and do not like. Having information about a strain is nice but like you I get kinda confused when it comes to the orientals. Its like a few strains I have. I dunno jack about them. They may turn out pretty good or they may be horrible. I like the idea of not knowing. Kinda adds to the excitement of growing. But on the other hand your never sure if you have a good pure strain or some bullshit somebody just let openly cross breed with whatever. The only beans I have that I trust they are pure is the ones from Canada and the ones from Northwood seeds. Next year I plan on buying only from NWS but if the guy in Canada has something interesting I'll probably buy a few from him as well.

I hope to trade some beans this winter with members. I should have a bunch to choose from.
 

Planter

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Hah, Bob, I wondered about it, but came to the opposite conclusion. That "Baffra Basma" I have grown has a Basma leaf shape (no petiole, it is actually very very similar to your top left image). Bafra (only one "f"?) is a district of Samsun in Turkey. So it could be a Basma from the Samsun area.
But perhaps that's nonsense - I did a lot of digging and could not find anything specific anywhere.
Then there's also this:

Baffra.jpg

and the Technical Bulletin 587, by the U.S. Dept. of Agriculture https://books.google.de/books?id=wOvV1Ny_xBUC&pg=RA8-PA26&lpg=RA8-PA26

which mentions: "The Samsoun, Baffra, and Trebizond tobaccos are grown along the South shores of the Black Sea. In general, they burn well and are high in nicotine content, as compared with other oriental varieties.... The color is reddish brown."

Tabakanbau describes their Baffra Basma as very low in nicotine, which hasn't been my experience, it can be strong tobacco in any regard.

pgrdeu.genres.de/exsitu/steckbrief/ex_id/395976/sdb_id/5/navleaf/genbank also lists a "Baffra Basma", again the Agricultural Technology Center Augustenberg - Forchheim (DEU594) being the collecting institute.

Speaking of names, my searches on the Origin of "Tik Konlak" did not take me much further, either. There seem to be name variations like Tyk-Kulak, Tikelak, Tikolak or Tikolac, which somehow point to a Kabakolak leaf shape.

"Tek (Tyk, Tik, or Di in other nearby languages) -Kulak is a Turkish term meaning "single ear," The words Tek-Kulak, like the term Bashi-Bagli, are frequently used to describe leaves that have a pronounced petiole or stem between the broad portion of the leaf and the place where it joins the stalk. The leaves of many types — Samsun, Xanthi, Prilep, and Prosochani — can be considered as having the characteristics associated with slender petiole or Tek-Kulak shape. Both Kaba-Kulak and Tek-Kulak are used to describe certain characteristics of the leaf, particularly the shape at the base or near the base where it joins the stalk."
https://archive.org/stream/positionoforient113birk/positionoforient113birk_djvu.txt

legacy.library.ucsf.edu/tid/ajg31d00/pdf refers to Tikolak from Mahabad - for a while the Soviets were "buying the whole tobacco crop" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Mahabad)

Tik-Kulak 235 was also grown in Moldavia at some point (http://eurekamag.com/research/025/920/results-varietal-testing-tobacco-in-moldavia.php )

After all these wanderings, one would expect the names to be scrambled.
 
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