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how soon is too soon to harvest seed?

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SmokesAhoy

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I'm planning on doing tests this year unless someone else already has.
Four categories:
1: green stem, green petals, green pod, dead flower attached
IMG_20170829_185047.jpg


2: green stem, green petals, brown pod, no flower
IMG_20170829_185752.jpg


3: green stem, brown petals, brown pod, no flower
IMG_20170829_185805.jpg


4: brown stem, brown petals, brown pod, no flower
IMG_20170829_184956.jpg



Category 4 is the benchmark and should be close to 100% germination. I'm curious at each step what the drop in percentage germination is though (if any). Has anyone done this before? If not I'll flesh this out with pics and run the germination tests over the winter when they've all dried out.
 
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ChinaVoodoo

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I bottled up Ternopolski 7, and Ostrolist 6 seeds on the weekend, and I noticed variations in color between the seeds from different pods. I look forward to your experiment results. As I don't need 50,000 seeds, and would be happy with 5,000, it would be handy to eliminate the seeds from pods that might not germinate as well. Make sure you comment on relative seed color too. I assume the more mature ones are darker, but it's science, right?
 

deluxestogie

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Excellent idea. I would suggest that the germination tests wait until at least January, to avoid the dormancy of very fresh seed.

To be meaningful, you might plan on a fixed actual, specific number of seeds (say 100 or 200) that will be tested per pod, as well as the number of pods to be tested of each class. So, you'll have to count them out at test time, and count the number germinated after 14 days. (Logging the day they begin to germinate might also be useful.) Germinating on white coffee filter paper, or a white paper towel would allow useful photos along the way. The pods tested would, of course, need to be from the same variety (or the whole project duplicated with a second variety).

I'll move this thread to Tobacco Science.

Bob
 

OldDinosaurWesH

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Bob:

Does tobacco seed exhibit post-harvest dormancy? Red wheat has this trait and white wheat does not. A lack of post-harvest dormancy in the white wheat our farmers grow around here can cause a real problem in that one unusual rainy year. White wheat has been known to start sprouting in the head. Sprout damaged wheat = hog feed = very little $. (I told you I know a lot about wheat. I'm pretty much a novice about tobacco.)

Wes H.
 

Tutu

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I've heard people say that there is this post harvest dormancy but to be honest I've seen Besuki seeds sprout right after harvesting. Maybe it's there, but not very strongly I would say
 

SmokesAhoy

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Yeah those are the 4 stages of maturity I see the buds in, would be nice to have more people run it too. Now is the time if you want to before next year.
 

deluxestogie

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Post-harvest dormancy is pronounced in some tobacco varieties and non-existent in others. There is some evidence that light exposure at germination reduces this post-harvest dormancy, and is probably the origin of the suggestion that tobacco seed should "always" be exposed to light when you begin germination.

It's just another variable to add to, or avoid in a murky research project.

Bob
 

OldDinosaurWesH

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Just like wheat then. Some do and some don't. I'll leave that one to the pros.

I just want to grow my tobacco successfully, not run an experimental farm. Good luck on the experiment.

Wes H.
 

Tutu

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Interesting. I know places (in Brazil for instance) where seeds are germinated in closed off dark cabinets. No light whatsoever penetrates...
 

SmokesAhoy

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Just like wheat then. Some do and some don't. I'll leave that one to the pros.

I just want to grow my tobacco successfully, not run an experimental farm. Good luck on the experiment.

Wes H.

I don't necessarily want to run an experimental farm either, but every year I find myself wanting to put the bed to rest before the rains start when it's sunny and dry and invariably I have stalks up so long it let's the crabgrass and other weeds put out seeds. If I can pick it reliably at any stage before #4 that would be a big convenience. Category 3 at least should be fine though as when I was putting those buds in their marked bag a few seeds just fell out. If category 1 shows appreciable results though I'd be done for the year already, the garden would be amended and the weeds sprayed.
 

OldDinosaurWesH

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I guess I'm lucky, we rarely get any significant rain 'till after October 1. And I don't have crabgrass either. Most years, we don't get a killing frost 'till after October 1. Last year we didn't get our killing frost 'till Nov. 17th. (This is unusual to be that late.) I kept a couple of tobacco tops going right up until first frost and the silly things were putting on fresh blooms right up 'till I cut them down on Nov. 16. Go figure.

Wes H.
 

Jack in NB

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Hi Smokes -

A few years back I got caught with a few bagged plants ( 2 different varieties) and frost forecast - a few leaves (most were primed earlier) and seed heads were at stage 2.

Cut the stalks and hung them inside. They continued to cure to stage 4 and I had solid germination the next year. No idea of percentage, but quite satisfactory.
 

deluxestogie

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Jack's comment raises the question of whether you plan to harvest an entire seed head at a particular stage, or pick off individual pods. The presence of the stalk in the entire head would, of course, improve the chances of the seed maturing prior to drying.

Bob
 

Jack in NB

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Good point, Bob.

I've been in the habit of cutting back on the number of pods in the cluster - leaving perhaps 10 or 12 of the earliest (fattest) buds to bag, flower and mature.
My thinking: seed production takes significant plant energy, and by reducing the number of pods, that energy is diverted into usable leaf . . . No stats to back that up, but i felt good doing it!

A week or so after bagging, I uncover, go in and prune out the new young buds, and recover. Usually after a couple of weeks, I uncover the cluster.

Having said that, this year has been a dead loss for me. Got to plant 10 survivors out of a planned planting of 75 or so - the others died from lack of attention. In late Feb I was told that I needed a bat of radiation for a surface cancer near my right ear, and that smoking drastically reduced the effectiveness of the radiation - so stop, at least for the 5 weeks duration. The radiation and aftermath was a bit rough, so a lot of things did not get done since then. My git up and go got up and went, and ain't been seen since!

The pipes went on the shelf March 12 at 6:30 pm Atlantic Daylight time . . . (Radiation started 0800 Mar 13 - a daily 15 minute procedure.) And wonder of wonders, they're still there. Wife and Grandkids are pleased. I still grumble.

So it may stick. 3 tries earlier - in the early eighties - failed.

So this might be my last crop. We'll see!
 

SmokesAhoy

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I've topped the plants in the past and that does work, one year I hung the plant, leaves roots and all. I've never tested green pods before though and I never did a controlled germination from the topped plant seeds either.

I guess I'd rather just save pods than heads or plants and I want to understand the process better.
 

deluxestogie

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Post some photos as you establish the starting points.

Bob

Never mind. You've already done that, if you are beginning with separated, individual pods.
 

SmokesAhoy

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Yeah I'm doing 1 plant, 2 pods each stage. They're in the basement with a dehumidifier maintaining about 50% humidity (which is quite low for my basement) and like you suggest I'll run the germination in January, I plan on mixing both pods and running 10 seeds for ease of counting on a paper towel. If enough people complain maybe I can be persuaded to actually count out 400 seeds but holy crap that's gonna be a chore.
 
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