Linguistic curiosity about the term "case"

[Youn]

Simple curiosity, since we don't have a word for that in France (or maybe I do not know it), where does the expression "low/medium/high case" comes from? I understand I have to listen "case" as synonymous with "state" but is there any other subtlety, anecdote or historical fact that sheds light on this usage?
And can anyone give me the equivalent in spanish for that expression?
Do you, in United States, use that expression for anything else than tobacco?

Thanks!

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

In the etymology section of Oxford English Dictionary online, the definition of case in reference to tobacco fits along with other "cases" as originating from Latin "casus", or French "caas".

 

[Youn]

Thank you. The french word is not "caas" but "cas" - this word isn't used as synonymous with "state" in french (I looked for a possible old use of it with that signification but I did not find anything). For that reason I was wondering if the expression would not have been taken from an anecdote or something that can only be understood in a specific culture… It seems that this is not the case

 

[deluxestogie]

The Case for "Case", in Case you Care
The argument in favor of using the word "case", should you wish to know it

case In the tobacco trade, the state of the leaf, during and after the process of curing, with respect to moisture-content and pliability: common in such phrases as in case (more or less moist), in good case (with the right degree of moisture), too high case, etc.

(v) case To bring into the desired ‘case’ or condition; specifically, in the tobacco trade, to bring the leaf into the desired condition as to moisture and pliability, and the admixture of ingredients to give flavor, etc.

http://www.finedictionary.com/case.html

The etymology is unclear. It probably derives from the Latin, capsa = container, and/or the capere = to fill. In North American tobacco production, the usage goes back probably 200 years or more, so its actual origin is not clear.

My short definition of "case", when I'm speaking of the "case" of tobacco, is its state of moisture content. The flavored humectants added to some tobacco blends are called "casing".

The only excuse I have for using the term "case" is that it has such a long history in the industry, and "case" is shorter than a more explicitly descriptive phrase.

Bob

 

[Youn]

The idea of 'container' was one of my tracks.
Thank you for letting me discover the "finedictionary"… useful.
After a short search, it seems that there is no spanish equivalent for that ; Another reason that awakes my curiosity about that term.

 

[Chicken]

you do understand what the leaf feels like in each 3 stages of case right? just making sure that wasnt your question,

 

[Youn]

you do understand what the leaf feels like in each 3 stages of case right? just making sure that wasnt your question,

Yes, thanks. The point is that for me (french man) this expression sounds curious and the fact that I couldn't find an equivalent in spanish — in the dedicated vocabulary that I usually encounter when reading or watching publications about cigars making — makes me wondering about its origins.

 

[squeezyjohn]

A fascinating question ... I have never heard of any other sense of the word "case" which refers to moisture content in English. We certainly don't use it in England to refer to how hard raisins or seaweed is when it's dried! I suspect that the same is the case (sic) in the USA.

Modern English is so closely related to French due to the Norman conquest of England in the 11th century ... that there are so many French words in the English vocabulary ... "case" meaning reason comes from the French word "cas" - event, happening from the latin "casus". "case" meaning conainer comes from the Old French word "chaisse" (modern french châsse) that comes from the latin "capsa" (cf. french word Caisse) - so both of our words "case" come from French - but the same word applied to tobacco is a mystery!

 

[deluxestogie]

If you examine ChinaVoodoo's OED examples, the earliest could easily be interpreted to mean that tobacco was wet in too high a situation. I can imagine that routine inspections rated the wetness as a "low" instance, a "medium" instance, and a "too high" instance (like check boxes on a government form). This interpretation could support an original usage of "case" with regard to tobacco as the same as a legal "case". And that its modern understanding, when applied to tobacco moisture level evolved from that into a colloquialism.

I have the uncomfortable feeling that each of us here may have just as valid an interpretation of the origins of this term as the scholar who provided the entry to the OED. They didn't know. We don't know.

And Youn, if it's any comfort, most Americans who are new to growing tobacco or working with whole leaf tobacco are just as puzzled about what it means. FTT to the rescue!

Bob

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

I tend to believe the Oxford when it says it descends from casus. Tobacco is listed as 5b, while 5a refers to the condition of something.

5. Cf. Phrases 4d and out of case at Phrases 8.
a. Condition, physical or mental state. Also: good physical condition; an instance of this. Frequently in in good (also worse) case.

c1325 (▸c1300) Chron. Robert of Gloucester (Calig.) l. 823 (MED) Þis king adde iwend aboute in such soruol cas.
c1400 (▸?a1300) Kyng Alisaunder (Laud) 4421 Wiþ swerd Rodyn he dude amere, And in þis stronge fiȝttyng cas He haþ mett wiþ Dalmadas.
1482 Caxton in tr. Higden's Prolicionycion viii. xix. f. ccccxiiijv Oure ambassadours cam hoome ageyne in werse caas than they wente.
1482 W. Maryon Let. 14 Apr. in Cely Lett. (1975) 138 Har leghe ys nat yt all holl, but Y truste to God yt stondyd in good casse.
a1535 T. More Dialoge of Comfort (1553) i. sig. A.ii He..neuer leaueth hys seruauntes in case of coumfortlesse Orphanes.
1535 Bible (Coverdale) Hosea iv. 3 Therfore shal the londe be in a miserable case.
1560 Bible (Geneva) Gen. xl. 14 When thou art in good case show mercie unto me.
1611 Bible (King James) Exod. v. 19 And the officers of the children of Israel did see that they were in euill case .
1614 W. Raleigh Hist. World i. iii. viii. §6. 96 Thereby leauing their old enemies in case of much contempt and disabilitie.
1636 Doc. Hist. State Maine (1884) III. 31 They [sc. the pigs] kept themselves in very good Case.
....

Youn, I believe when they say it descends from caas, we should read on that this is an old spelling.

 

[deluxestogie]

I really do respect the OED. I own a (massive) printed copy that I cherish. I find its greatest value in the dated quotes of its examples.

Bob

 

[Youn]

Very interesting.

ChinaVoodoo, I agree, I would be surprised that it is a mistake of OED, however two things make me doubt :

1- The double 'a' does not exist to my knowledge in french, even in old french.
2- The Oxford dictionary available inline give me this informations that differs from what you have shared (I supposed it's a different edition… ??) :
(https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/case)

Case (meaning event) :
"Origin :
Middle English: from Old French cas, from Latin casus ‘fall’, related to cadere ‘to fall’; in case (sense 4) directly from Latin, translating Greek ptōsis, literally ‘fall’."

Case (meaning container) :
"Origin :
Late Middle English: from Old French casse, chasse (modern caisse ‘trunk, chest’, châsse ‘reliquary, frame’), from Latin capsa, related to capere ‘to hold’."

So, mistake with "casse" > "caas" ?… unlikely, but possible…
I have to search more for "caas" in old dictionnaries, I could't find it yesterday but it was a very fast research… lack of time.

In continuity with Bob's suggestion, it is likely that the expression was born of a standardization of the production process, particulary in the United States, with the concern of optimization that is known to them
Although the expression seems strange to me, I find it very practical for the use we make of it and it avoids a lot of repetitions.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

I used the Oxford that's available through the University database. Here's the link. I don't know if you have access.
http://www.oed.com.ezproxy.macewan....=93QjJY&result=170&isAdvanced=true#firstMatch

Forms: OE casa (genitive plural), OE casas (accusative plural), OE case (dative), OE ... (Show More)
Frequency (in current use):
Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymons: Latin cāsus, French caas.
Etymology: Originally (in Old English) < classical Latin cāsus (see below).

Subsequently reborrowed < (i) Anglo-Norman caas, Anglo-Norman and Old French, Middle French cas, Anglo-Norman and Middle French case (feminine), kas (French cas ) grammatical case (c1170 or earlier in Anglo-Norman, second quarter of the 13th cent. in continental French), situation, state of things (beginning of the 13th cent. or earlier), legal action or suit brought to trial (second quarter of the 13th cent. or earlier; frequently in Anglo-Norman), affair, business (c1261), event, chance happening (c1270 or earlier), fortune, chance (c1300, originally in par cas ), circumstances of a legal case (early 14th cent. or earlier),

and its etymon (ii) classical Latin cāsus (also cassus ) fall, end (of a season), ending (of a word), grammatical case, accident, chance, occurrence, event, incidence or occurrence (of a disease), misfortune, disaster, outcome, opportunity, danger, risk, situation, in post-classical Latin also legal case (5th cent.) < cas- , past participial stem of cadere to fall (see cadence n.) + -tus, suffix forming verbal nouns.

Compare Old Occitan cas, Catalan cas (14th cent.), Spanish caso (end of the 12th cent.), Portuguese caso (13th cent.), Italian caso (c1260).

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

It seems to have evolved out of the definition of "being in good condition". The phrase section gives examples of case used in this sense, historically before it was used for tobacco, then subsequently also with tobacco, then eventually exclusively.

P8.out of case: in poor condition. Now only with reference to tobacco (see sense 5b).
In quot. 1593: not in a condition or position to do something; unprepared.

1593 G. Markham Disc. Horsmanshippe iv. sig. I4v Iudge in what temper aud state hys body standeth, and howe farre he is eyther out of case or in case, for the running of a course.
a1643 W. Cartwright Ordinary (1651) i. ii. 9 Thou art so leane and out of case.
1673 A. Behn Dutch Lover ii. iii. 42 This replenishing of our spirits, as you call it, Sir, may put us out of case.
1704 Swift Full Acct. Battel between Bks. in Tale of Tub 240 Their Horses large, but extreamly out of Case.
1745 D. Giddings Jrnl. in Essex Inst. Hist. Coll. (1912) XLVIII. 299 9 [May]. A little better this morning... 10. I was still out of case but keept about.
1835 W. Brigham Addr. before Inhabitants of Grafton 11 The gun missing fire, (probably the moist rainy weather had put it out of case,) they all came out.
1850 Ann. Rep. Commissioner Patents 1849: Agric. 461 in U.S. Congress. Serial Set (31st Congr., 1st Sess.: House of Representatives Executive Doc. No. 20, Pt. 2) VI When put in winnows this way, it [sc. tobacco] frequently goes out of case.
1909 Farmers' Bull. (U.S. Dept. Agric.) No. 343. 26 If tobacco is going out of case when bulked, it will continue to go out.
2013 A. K. Ferrell Burley i. ii. 78 When it is out of case, it is brittle and crumbles at the touch.

(b) in case: in good condition, esp. (of tobacco) cured and sufficiently moist to withstand handling.

1606 J. Day Ile of Guls sig. Fv You shall haue some Poet..write you a..historie in prose..: I had one of them my selfe, and your eares be in case, Ile giue you a taste on't.
1680 P. Hay Marquis of Chastelet Politicks of France x. 119 One thing which presseth more at present, is, the putting of the Country in case again.
1755 Johnson Dict. Eng. Lang. (at cited word) In ludicrous language, In case is lusty or fat.
1785 D. Young National Improvem. upon Agric. Pref. p. viii One person..lays it down as a rule never to plow nor sow but when the ground is in case.
1845 G. Dodd Brit. Manuf. 5th Ser. 132 An exposure to the air for..about five weeks makes the leaves of tobacco elastic and tough, and slightly covered with a glossy kind of moisture. The tobacco is then said to be in case.
1865 Trans. Illinois State Agric. Soc. 1861–4 5 667 The fires should be suffered to go out, and the tobacco be suffered to come in case, or get soft again.
1944 Dial. Notes Nov. 65 In case: adj. phr., in proper condition—cured and having the correct amount of moisture to ensure handling without injury or loss.
1998 J. Van Willigen & S. C. Eastwood Tobacco Culture ix. 143 Dry tobacco is extremely brittle and will shatter if handled. Cured tobacco can only be handled if it is in case.

 

[Youn]

I can't access.
By rethinking it, the double 'a' could be a norman thing…

 

[Gavroche]

https://books.google.fr/books?id=NR...ykQ6AEIRDAH#v=onepage&q=rabelais caas&f=false

 

[Youn]

Hahaha! Thanks Gav! Excellent!
I don't know how to give an english version of it, but I'll try to resume… later because I have to take care of my baby now!

It make me think about the dutch word for 'cheese' : 'kaas'… the Flemish use to call the dutch-people 'kaaskop', literally cheese-head

 

[deluxestogie]

CV, in the OED examples you most recently posted, re-read them, substituting "fullness" or "full" wherever it says "in case" in the oldest quotes. While the modern meaning of being "in condition" or "out of condition" is no doubt correct, that may not be true of their original or historic meaning.

My only point is that the OED examples support the asserted definition, but their immediate meaning to contemporary listeners (or readers) may have been different at those dates.

Bob

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

I don't think the intention of the examples is to assert the definition. I think the intention of etymology is to show how the meaning of words split and evolved over time. The earlier examples don't necessarily match semantically with the newer ones, and that's kind of the point. You can see how we got what we now have.

 

[BigBonner]

Bringing tobacco in case is also called bringing tobacco in order . order or to add case to tobacco .