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Kilning in jars : slight vinegar smell ?

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Jitterbugdude

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I kiln in jars for 3 weeks at 122F. I've gone 4 weeks but never noticed an improvement so I stick to 3. The "fermentation" is done in about 3 weeks anyway.
 
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sorry im new to this and just researching right now but I find the jar idea intriguing. Is the general idea that you get the humidity in the jars where you want them to be and only use the kiln for the heating element then? do you monitor the humidity in the jars? you don't have to take the leaves out and rotate or fuss around with them every day to prevent mould?
 

ChinaVoodoo

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sorry im new to this and just researching right now but I find the jar idea intriguing. Is the general idea that you get the humidity in the jars where you want them to be and only use the kiln for the heating element then? do you monitor the humidity in the jars? you don't have to take the leaves out and rotate or fuss around with them every day to prevent mould?
The jars maintain the humidity, so you don't have to maintain humidity in the chamber.

Burping jars would not prevent mold. What prevents mold is having a proper balance between temperature and water content. Every tobacco is a little different, but my non-scientifically catalogued experience tells me it goes like this 114-118°F, it will mold if it is more moist than what you normally smoke it at. At 118-123° you can keep it increasingly more moist, but it can still mold. Above 124°+, you're pretty much impervious to mold.
 
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The jars maintain the humidity, so you don't have to maintain humidity in the chamber.

Burping jars would not prevent mold. What prevents mold is having a proper balance between temperature and water content. Every tobacco is a little different, but my non-scientifically catalogued experience tells me it goes like this 114-118°F, it will mold if it is more moist than what you normally smoke it at. At 118-123° you can keep it increasingly more moist, but it can still mold. Above 124°+, you're pretty much impervious to mold.

Is there an advantage to keeping it more moist than you would normally smoke/roll?
 

ChinaVoodoo

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Is there an advantage to keeping it more moist than you would normally smoke/roll?
The advantages are that at higher temperatures, above 122°F, there is very little chance of mold, and it takes less time. Like, one month.That's what I do with tobacco intended for the pipe.That's what most people do. It ends up darker, as well.

Counter to other people's experience, my cigar tobacco done that way has ended up tasting like pipe tobacco. There could be all sorts of reasons: I live in the crappy cold part of Canada, I fertilize organically, other climate factors, or something unknown. Therefore, I'm experimenting with the risky alternative in an attempt to make my cigar leaf taste a bit more legit. I have my Piloto at 117°F just a smidge above "in case". It has been 4 months. I rolled a cigarillo a couple days ago, and the smell and flavor were very promising. I think another two months, and it should be good. Thankfully I have tobacco from WLT to smoke in the meantime.

But I can't stress how disastrous a couple days of molding would be. Taking this risk requires experience and intimate knowing of ones kiln.
 
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The advantages are that at higher temperatures, above 122°F, there is very little chance of mold, and it takes less time. Like, one month.That's what I do with tobacco intended for the pipe.That's what most people do. It ends up darker, as well.

Counter to other people's experience, my cigar tobacco done that way has ended up tasting like pipe tobacco. There could be all sorts of reasons: I live in the crappy cold part of Canada, I fertilize organically, other climate factors, or something unknown. Therefore, I'm experimenting with the risky alternative in an attempt to make my cigar leaf taste a bit more legit. I have my Piloto at 117°F just a smidge above "in case". It has been 4 months. I rolled a cigarillo a couple days ago, and the smell and flavor were very promising. I think another two months, and it should be good. Thankfully I have tobacco from WLT to smoke in the meantime.

But I can't stress how disastrous a couple days of molding would be. Taking this risk requires experience and intimate knowing of ones kiln.

so I don't have a whole lot of experience with pipe tobacco besides smelling it a few times and an old tobacconist shop I used to go in when I was too young to buy... a lot of it seems to be very sweet, which I don't know that I would find all that offensive in a cigar.... but I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "tasting like pipe tobacco" so could you elaborate on that a bit more? I mean I know there is something to getting the taste that you want, but I mean if it rolls well and it burns well, and it tastes good I'm not sure I would be too upset with that... also, thought I haven't tested it my self, I would think that the fermentation process would increase the sugar content and therefore, make the tobacco sweeter, thus making it closer to pipe tobacco taste? Also I would also guess that living in Canada might have a huge relationship there, it is the land of maple sugar... many of the plants up that way have a high sugar content because it helps protect them from the colder weather... but i'm jelous of the maple syrup, cause I used to have a friend that bring some black market stuff over a while back.. it was amazing!
 

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Well. You're right. I should clarify. Pipe tobacco in stores is artificially flavored and sweetened. What I mean is that my previous attempts at cigar leaf ended up tasting like a rich, non-sweet natural burley.

Fermenting doesn't increase sugar. It reduces it actually. At higher temperatures it may produce complex chemicals that are the product of the reactions between amino acids and sugars that give it a caramel type (but not caramel) aroma and taste. Overall, it increases flavor making it more complex.

I think you should start at higher temperatures because I think you won't be disappointed.
 
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Well. You're right. I should clarify. Pipe tobacco in stores is artificially flavored and sweetened. What I mean is that my previous attempts at cigar leaf ended up tasting like a rich, non-sweet natural burley.

Fermenting doesn't increase sugar. It reduces it actually. At higher temperatures it may produce complex chemicals that are the product of the reactions between amino acids and sugars that give it a caramel type (but not caramel) aroma and taste. Overall, it increases flavor making it more complex.

I think you should start at higher temperatures because I think you won't be disappointed.
I think I just recently read not to go over 130 though as it can effect some of the volitiles that add to the flavor... Seems dangerously close to that mark
 

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I kiln my tobacco in jars and I have the same conclusions as ChinaVoodoo.
Like ChinaVoodoo, my cigar strains end up pretty sweet. I don't know if this is the kiln's fault or if there is another reason.

In fact I wonder if his has anything to do with harvesting time... I harvest my tobacco often on the ripe state more than on the mature state, and it can be one reason.
I noticed that the leaves harvested not mature enough smell more like cigar tobacco. It's often the case with the plants infected with PVY in my garden (they don't want to mature or ripen).
The problem with unmature leaves is that they are really hard to color cure...

I still have a lot of things to learn ! ;)
 
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I kiln my tobacco in jars and I have the same conclusions as ChinaVoodoo.
In fact I wonder if his has anything to do with harvesting time... I harvest my tobacco often on the ripe state more than on the mature state, and it can be one reason.
I noticed that the leaves harvested not mature enough smell more like cigar tobacco. It's often the case with the plants infected with PVY in my garden (they don't want to mature or ripen).
The problem with unmature leaves is that they are really hard to color cure...

I still have a lot of things to learn ! ;)

I think you might be on to something there! I do know that as deciduous trees' leaves change color for the winter it's because the tree is converting the chlorophyl into sugar and storing it for the winter (that's also why the fall is a good time to tap for maple syrup) and I would suspect that that same thing is happening in tobacco plants, though I would guess (perhaps i'm wrong on this but it make sense to me in my head, if someone knows different please chime in) that instead of storing the the sugars for later use it puts them all into seed production....

I did a quick google and found out that tobacco is actually a perennial hardy in zones 7-11... interesting, I had no idea... Has anyone ever tried growing the same plant multiple years in a row? what happened? I might start another thread about this bring more attention to it (or do some searching around first as it might have already been mentioned before) but that might prove me wrong a little bit because my theory was it knows it's gotta use up all that energy before the winter comes... so I would imagine it probably stores a bunch of the energy in the root system then for overwintering? hmm... maybe having a permanent patch that grows all on it's own is sounding quite attractive!

but yeah, I bet if you harvested more early while the leaves were greener there would be less sugar content...
what is challenging about color curing the earlier ones? I haven't tried curing yet but I feel like this will come in handy to know when I get my patch up next year...
 

deluxestogie

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Yes. Tobacco is a tropical / sub-tropical perennial. I have grown plants in pots for multiple years. They just grow, and if topped, will create another principal stalk. The problem is that it's only during its first unrestricted (not in a pot) growth in the ground that it produces the best leaf for harvesting. After that, it's mediocre quality leaf.

Another problem is that tobacco pests overwinter on persistent plants.

These matters have been discussed in a number of my grow logs over the years.

Bob
 
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Yes. Tobacco is a tropical / sub-tropical perennial. I have grown plants in pots for multiple years. They just grow, and if topped, will create another principal stalk. The problem is that it's only during its first unrestricted (not in a pot) growth in the ground that it produces the best leaf for harvesting. After that, it's mediocre quality leaf.

Another problem is that tobacco pests overwinter on persistent plants.
Bob

are the leaves just too small or misshapen or something? or not numerous enough?
 

ChinaVoodoo

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Proteins and starches are broken down into amino acids and sugars, respectively. The break down of protein also gives off ammonia, and the break down of starch also releases carbon dioxide. This is to be stored in the roots, just like all other plants in the solanaceae (think of potatoes).

You certainly can maintain a tobacco plant over multiple harvests if you lop it at the root and let it grow back. People have done it. If you live in a place where it's too cold, you would have to bring it in and you would be perpetuating a cycle of flies and bugs etc that would normally end if you just planted a new crop.

Tobacco is nearly annual here in the great white north. Seeds left in the soil from letting them flower freely results in a certain percentage of brand new plants.

Higher protein levels in the leaf during an early pick would have more impact on flavor than any discussion of carbohydrates. As most of the sugar in a picked leaf regardless of when, is converted into carbon dioxide, (unless flue cured), which is a simple chemical reaction; very few flavor compounds would remain. The complex array of products left after protein break down has much greater impact on flavor and smokability.
 
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