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Kilning in jars : slight vinegar smell ?

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Charly

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As some of you might have seen, I have finally build my first kiln.
But now, I have questions about what's going on inside :)

My tobacco are in jars, closed, I open them from time to time to smell and see how the tobacco is evolving, and I wondered if what I smell is right or not : nearly every tobacco release a slight acid (vinegar) smell to it when I open the jars. I don't think it's amonia (or I should say : I don't know if it is amonia ?), so I wonder if I am doing things the right way ?
My kiln is working at 120°F (48.8°C), my tobacco is in medium/high case.

Did you notice this acid smell too with your kilns ? It happens on every strains I grew : bright leaves as well as burley or cigar varieties.

Thanks ;)
 

Smokin Harley

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how long has it been going? Unfortunately I wasnt able to haul my kiln down here so I dont have one anymore , maybe someday again .
However, in the first few days to week of kilning there was an aroma that I would describe simply as "pungent" at the time I couldnt determine ammonia or acidic. Might be what you have going on.
 

Charly

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I think what you describe as "pungent" describe pretty well what I smell.

Some tobacco has been in the kiln for about 14 days, this smell has been noticable pretty soon, I think at about 3 or 4 days in the kiln (I have been busy and forgot to take notes of all those details precisely...).
If I air the leaves, this "acid" smell disappear somewhat, but as soon as the tobacco spend some time hot in the kiln, this acid smell comes back.
I have notice that the bright leaf (cherry red) smells noticeably more "pungent" than the others.

Do you think I need to air every jar for one day, then put them back to case and back in the kiln ?
I might try this with one or two jars and see if it shows some differences in the next days :)

Thanks for your answer Smokin Harley.
 

DistillingJim

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I noticed a strong smell when I was kilning although I wouldnt call it vinegar - not in the McClelland sense of the word anyway. I put it down to ammonia.
 

Jitterbugdude

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I vent my jars twice a day. Once in the early morning and once in the evening. All I do is just take off the lid for a few seconds and then put it back on. I do this to let out any gas that my have formed from the kilning process. For the first couple of days (maybe up to a week) my leaves stink. After that they all start to take on the nice aroma of tobacco. What I find interesting is that each jar of tobacco (with a different variety in each jar) takes on a very unique aroma. Yenidje smells different from Semois etc. .. all delicious
 

Charly

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Thanks for your answers my friends ;)

The "acidic" smell is the strongest in bright leaf (cherry red) compared to the other tobacco jars.
On every strain, the leaves from the bottom of the plants show little of this smell, it increases with leaves higher on the stalk.

I am not too worried, but I wondered, I thought it was normal for virginia to smell acidic, but I thought cigar varieties should smell more alkaline, but I do not detect this "cigar odor" for now.
I will wait to see how it will evolve.

I have to say that some jars are smelling wonderfull :) (and yes, every jar smells differently, I love this !)
 

LeftyRighty

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I've had a kiln since 2011, and never could figure out what to call that smell. My kiln is in an attached garage, and the 'stink' will permeate the whole house, may last for 2-3 weeks, but when it's completely gone, it's time to give it another week to mellow, then shred my tobac. I'll store this in Don's plastic bags, doesn't need any more 'ventilation' and will only improve with age.
 
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burge

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I know the tobacco will ferment and kiln in Dons bags. As well as humidity tobacco needs oxygen to breathe. When I open a bag that has been sealed for 2 years it has that pungent smell which is ammonia. I thought the tobacco was ruined but let It breathe and was amazing.
 

ChinaVoodoo

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I only open my jars periodically out of curiosity. For one, there's plenty of air in the jar. Also, I read somewhere that most oxidation in tobacco aging is hydrolysis--the oxygen comes from breaking the water molecule--not from the air.
 

BarG

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just putting unseasoned tobacco in jars will create that smell and after time will in my opinion ruin it. I reccomend kilning or air aging. I still have 5 lb. bags of cigar leaf in vapor proof bags sealed tight. make sure there is no bugs when you do it. They work great for preserving your leaves.
 

Charly

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I see that there are divergente opinions :)
To answer BarG, my jars ARE in the kiln ;)
I air the jars from time to time, not all days, just to smell them, some are already very nice.
The first days, the odor is not very appetising, but after a few days it becomes more and more inviting.

I know some people here do kiln their tobacco in jars for a long time and are happy with the results, so I don't think it will be ruined (well, at least, I hope).

The main concern of my topic was to know if I was on the right way with this "pungent" or "acidic" smell.
As I said, I was expecting some acidic smell from the bright leaf strains, but I hoped for something more "cigarish" for the cigar strains, maybe I just have to wait longer until this "cigar smell" arise ?
My cigar strains (Little Dutch, Pennsylvania Red, Corojo 99, Nostrano, etc...) do not show the smell I associate with commercial cigars for now. They all smell sweet, some fruity, some woody, but no "cigar", am I doing something wrong ?
 

Jitterbugdude

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Little Dutch will not smell like a "normal" cigar. I think what most people associate with a normal cigar scent is a Havana type leaf that is made in to a cigar and stored with cedar. Little Dutch has a very unique smell. It was quite popular in the USA until about the 1880's. I do not know about the others.
 

Charly

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A few days later, I feel that the tobacco in jars is smelling less and less "acidic", they may be on the right way :)
Only the bright leaf (cherry red) maintains a real "acidic smell".

Now I have more questions :) about temperature and humidity.
I have read in the "Fiasco Box" thread ( http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/6002-Deluxestogie-s-Unheated-Foam-Fermentation-Box-Fiasco/page2 ) some interesting informations about "auto-fermentation" that arise in piles of tobacco.

In this thread they compared the activity of the enzymes at different temperatures and humidity.
Reading this, it seems that the enzymes are more active at 77°F (25°C).
They say that tobacco with a moisture content of about 50 to 54% was fermenting more than with a moisture of 30% (which seems to be the minimum moisture to see enzyme activity)

I have also read that some wrapper were fermented at 98 to 100°F (36 to 38°C) maximum.

Now the questions :
- Does anyone knows what is the moisture content (in %) of tobacco in "low case" / "medium case" / "high case" ?
- As anyone ever tried to kiln tobacco with lower temperatures (less than 120°F/50°C) ?
 

deluxestogie

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That's my Fiasco Box thread! I had forgotten about it. I will draw your attention to this specific post: http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads...ion-Box-Fiasco?p=111131&viewfull=1#post111131

The 25°C temperature is derived from tests on tobacco in which all oxidizing enzymes have been destroyed, prior to the test.

Claro (nearly blonde) wrapper leaf is fermented in baby steps, at a relatively low humidity, in order to prevent it from darkening in color. Fermentation of nearly all other cigar leaf is carried out with temps approaching the 120 to 128°F range.

Bob
 

Charly

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Thank you Bob for pointing out that specific post :) I forgot he used sterilized leaves...
These informations are indeed not very usefull for us, you are right.

So you think that the wrappers are "fermented" at only 98-100°F just to keep their color ?
I wonder if the leaves might produce slight differences (in aromas) while being kilned at different temperatures (I remember Maks said somewhere that tobacco kilned up to 131°F (55°C) was not as good as tobacoo kilned at 113°F (45°C)).

It might be interesting to try to kiln the very same tobacco under different temperatures, I might try this in the future.
 

deluxestogie

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My guess is that low temperature fermentation must be undertaken in a relatively low humidity, say 60% RH, in order to prevent mold. 120°F will prevent mold growth.

While I know that higher humidity during color-curing does result in a darker final color, I'm not sure of its impact on kilning. When I've taken a kiln above 135°F, I've noticed a definite change in the taste (mostly for the worse), which I attribute to the volatilizing of some of the lighter-weight organic compounds.

A well controlled study would be difficult. The leaf is different from one month to the next, and certainly from one variety and one stalk position to the next. What would be required is a collection of maybe 4 identical kilns, working on nearly identical leaf, but under differing conditions.

Bob
 

Thedbs999

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I had 2 plants that i stalk harvested back in September. They never reached the kiln and have been hanging . The leaves are very dry and color cured. I found this thread and decided to jar ferment these leaves just to try something new to me to see what happens.

i brought all the leaves up to high case and removed the mid rib, rolled them up and put in quart canning jars with lids screwed on real good. 5 jars to allow ample room for air in there.

i put the jars in my kiln which is heated with a empty crock pot. The temp is controlled at 125 degrees with a thermostat.

Question ????? How long do I leave the jars in the kiln??? 30 days???

Dan
 
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