Do you need to ferment for making dip?

[Nik Vee]

Hey guys I have my first harvest of tobacco hanging in my basement now and they’re turning a nice yellow brown color. It’s been about 2 weeks and I plan on going around 6 weeks with the air curing process. I have a stand up fan that rotates left to right down there too.

I feel feel like my leaves are really brittle currently but the humidity down there is consistently between 60-80%. I feel like that where I should be at. If I’m wrong please correct me.

After this 6 weeks of air curing do I need to ferment my tobacco? I and just using it for dip (trying to make Copenhagen mint if anyone wants to help with that too).

Any input is appreciated.

 

[davek14]

I've wondered that myself since you simmer it for a while, don't you. One quick and dirty recipe I saw on a homesteading/self-sufficiency site just said it was better if you did.

Always been a little interested in tobacco use which does not ferment or age tobacco. Bidis are just raw tobacco aren't they.

 

[deluxestogie]

I believe bidis are filled with sun-cured (or maybe sun-flash-green-cured) tobacco. If bidis are your standard for smokable tobacco, then you are indeed blessed.

There is stuff in new tobacco that, when smoked, tastes like crap: complex carbohydrates, albuminous proteins. This nasty stuff is slowly oxidized and dissipated over time by intrinsic enzymes within the leaf. Fermentation of tobacco is just an accelerated version of aging, brought about by increased temperatures (up to a max of ~149°F, beyond which the enzymes begin to break down from the heat). Even a 5 day flue-cure of green leaf waits while the living leaf yellows, before raising the temp.

Allowing green leaf to air-cure (by hanging, etc.) until it is fully browned is an excellent first step. I know zero about making dip. If I were to experiment, I wouldn't begin until air-cured leaf had aged at least 6 to 12 months, or had been kilned.

Bob

 

[Nik Vee]

Thanks guys 6-12 months is pretty long. I just started growing this year because a tin of dip has risen to over $8 a can here in Connecticut. I figured the taste wouldn’t matter AS much in dip because I’ll be adding mint flavoring to it anyways. Cigars you get what you get you don’t add any flavoring so leaf taste is very important. But I guess I won’t know until I try it. I’m going to try to make some at the 6ish week mark when my tobacco fully browns and see what it tastes like. Do you think I should just let it hang for the 6-12 month period or what? Here are some picks of my set up in my basement now

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

According to this website http://www.ikisan.com/tg-tobacco-curing.html bidi tobacco is air cured by hanging bundles of two or three leaves on strings in barns in Andhra Pradesh, and sun cured as a whole plant laid on the ground in Maharashtra.

Just to be clear, bidis only contain tobacco in the inside. The greenish wrapper is either a Diospyros melanoxylon or Piliostigma racemosum leaf. (From Wikipedia)

 

[davek14]

I wouldn't say bidis were actually what I would call "good". Smoked 'em when I was younger for a few weeks. I think they were originally made by tobacco workers. I'm guessing the fact that they are not all tobacco alleviates the taste some.

Deluxestogie, do you think simmering might accomplish any of that? I've seen chewing tobacco recipes which called for the simmering. However, I just searched a few snuff recipes and they did not simmer. I have tried tobacco with just a few months on it as a chew, just rolling it with honey and pressing it. It tasted pretty nasty, so I'm going to say that any recipe which doesn't require simmering the stuff would surely need aged/kilned tobacco. I'm sure it is best no matter what.

 

[deluxestogie]

If I couldn't burn it, I didn't learn it. I know practically nothing about smokeless preparations.

By "simmering", you are suggesting a Cavendish preparation. Those begin with fully air-cured leaf, then cook it in water or steam. That might be worth a try.

From the Index of Key Forum Threads:
Smokeless

• http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/2573-How-to-make-swedish-snus Swedish snus
• http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/2944-The-way-I-make-my-Swedish-snus Swedish snus
• http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/3475-NC-State-Smokeless-Tobacco-Reference NC State smokeless tobacco reference
• http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/6303-En-snus-guide Snus Instructions in Finnish and Swedish (and English)
• http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/7083-It-S-Gold?p=129714&viewfull=1#post129714 Maine Black Gold Snus

The various posts in those threads will give you an idea of which forum members might be of help. Also, some members have made "twist" for chew.

I know that there are lengthy discussions of chew preparations within the forum, but I rely on members to PM me about specific threads that they feel should be added to the Index.

Bob

 

[davek14]

I saw a recipe once for chew where you boiled it in apple cider, boiling it down syrupy to coat the leaf.

 

[Nik Vee]

Dave I’ve seen the same stuff boiling apple juice down to a syrup then adding molasses and some salt and flavoring. I think the actually recipe will be pretty easy. I’m just the mostly concerned about getting my tobacco totally preped properly to actually use the recipe

deluxe thanks for the response I’ll look into those forums


nik

 

[Jitterbugdude]

If you are making dip no need to ferment the leaves. That is, if you use a crock pot to cook the tobacco for 4 to 24 hours (whatever you prefer). The advantage of making dip right away (and using heat such as from a crock pot) is that you prevent the formations of TSNAs.

 

[Nik Vee]

If you are making dip no need to ferment the leaves. That is, if you use a crock pot to cook the tobacco for 4 to 24 hours (whatever you prefer). The advantage of making dip right away (and using heat such as from a crock pot) is that you prevent the formations of TSNAs.

thanks jitterbug,

Do you think air curing in my basement for 6 weeks then throwing them in a little chamber with the crock pot for a day and then grinding up and making the recipe I’ll put under this message will be adequate?

 

[davek14]

Think he means to actually cook the tobacco in the crock pot.

 

[squeezyjohn]

Fermenting means subjecting something to microbial activity to change the product. Yeast ferments sugars in liquor to form alcohol, lactic acid bacteria ferment sugars in cucumbers to create lactic acid to sour and preserve pickles, deliberately fermented tobacco uses microbial action to change the taste of raw tobacco.

If you make the perfect air-dried snus with the Swedish method, you only use the enzymes present in the leaves themselves with the heat of cooking and addition of alkali to release the flavours and nicotine needed. This makes a very low-cancer risk tobacco and is not fermented.

In reality, most curing is not done in sterile conditions, especially not home cured stuff, and natural microbes will act on the tobacco during its curing process, thriving in the semi-moist warm conditions, and will impart their own flavours on the tobacco leaf as it cures. Frankly, these flavours are generally beneficial to tobacco, but can also raise TSNA levels which makes the tobacco harmful. Traditional american chewing tobacco and dip were further deliberately fermented to increase flavour and free nicotine ... personally I don't advise this as it makes a product which is more likely to be harmful when chewed.

 

[deluxestogie]

Lactic acid in fermented pickles or peppers or cabbage is produced by the live cucumber etc. tissue metabolizing (by the Krebs Cycle) nutrients in the absence of adequate oxygen. This is not a microbial fermentation. Likewise, tobacco fermentation is the result of oxidase enzymes within the living or dead tobacco tissue converting albuminous proteins and carbohydrates. This is also not a microbial fermentation.

Studies of tobacco fermentation always identify various microbes in or on the fermenting leaf. However, when the fermentation rate (oxidation rate) is at its highest, the microbial count is at its lowest. By contrast, pressure-curing Perique is a microbial process, with the finale and wonderful, fruity aromas being produced by actively growing Pichia anomala yeast.

Bob