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Whole Leaf Tobacco

Comparing Tobacco Varieties for Pipe Blending

burge

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#22
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

Since nobody bothered to comment, it looks like I am the only one experiencing this kind of symptoms. Or are there any other reasons? The Oriental I am dealing with is Krumovgrad, a Bulgarian variety I purchased some time ago from Leaf Only website. Here is the description: [FONT=&amp]This tobacco, very similar to Basma, is a golden yellow / brown Oriental type tobacco leaf that is grown in Bulgaria, a country with a tradition in production of high quality tobacco. This is a quick growing, shorter and smaller leafed tobacco that provides a sweet, pleasant flavor and smooth burn that Oriental tobacco is known for. "

Since it was one of four other Orientals I used in the blend, it was difficult to identify. It was only after I went back several testing blends and found one just before the introduction of[/FONT]
Krumovgrad, I realized that this is the one causing my symptoms. After that loaded the pipe with just this tobacco and smoked it to see if I am correct. Yes, I am correct - this is the culprit. Unfortunately, I don't remember test-smoking it right after I purchased this small sample. What puzzles me is this part of the description: "tobacco that provides a sweet, pleasant flavor". I can't find any sweetness in the flavor. Instead, I experience sourness in my mouth and bitter, strong peppery taste.

I would appreciate if anybody cares to comment.

Wiktor
I think it was because it was from Leaf Only. This place here is not fond of leaf only and a lot of people have posted not so favourable reviews on them. Including me. All they sell is mass produced commercial tobacco. With Don and Big Bonner you get premium products that the more expensive blends use.
 

alPol05

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#23
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

I think it was because it was from Leaf Only. This place here is not fond of leaf only and a lot of people have posted not so favourable reviews on them. Including me. All they sell is mass produced commercial tobacco. With Don and Big Bonner you get premium products that the more expensive blends use.
Thanks for the comment.

WK
 

burge

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#24
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

No problem just because a leaf looks perfect cosmetically does not make it a exceptional product.
 

alPol05

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#25
I am asking for comments on the following:

I identified a component of the blend I am working on for a while as the one that introduced very strong bitterness. It is one of the Oriental tobaccos that I use in the blend. There are four other Orientals in the blend. I would like to withhold the name of this tobacco for various reasons. I will probably reveal the name later.

Here are the symptoms: the lining of my mouth becomes sour and irritated, and I can taste strong bitterness. The sourness appears on the inside of my lips and inside lining of my cheeks. There is no tongue bite or any other unpleasant sensations except bitterness that I can taste on the further part of my tongue and throat.

Thanks much,
Wiktor
A few days ago I posted a message about the troubles I have with one of the Oriental leaves. I identified it to be a Krumovgrad leaf from LeafOnly. As promised, I tested all Oriental tobaccos I currently have and here are my observations:

I created a scale from 1 to 10 to illustrate the bitterness I experience while smoking each leaf, where 10 represent the bitterness of Krumovgrad. All tobaccos create soreness in my mouth to the same degree as bitterness.

a. Krumovgrad-LeafOnly - 10
b. Turkish (commercial) - 4
c. Smyrna (commercial) – 5
d. Izmir (commercial) – 6
e. Stokkebye No. 313 Macedonian Mix (commercial) - 5
f. Samsun-WLT - 1
g. Basma-WLT – 2
h. Izmir-WLT - 3

As we can see, all Orientals create a degree of bitterness when smoked which, if I understand correctly, is described on the commercial website as spiciness.

The Krumovgrad leaf is the most bitter in the lineup, and I will never use it. I also would not recommend this leaf to anybody.

All commercial tobaccos create a degree of bitterness and soreness, and it is much higher in all samples but the WLT leaves.

WLT lineup is the most suitable for me. It provides the most delicate impact on the blend. However, it is interesting to realize that each of these leaves appears to exert a different level of bitterness (spiciness).

The difference in spiciness points to another issue: how interchangeable are these leaves in the blend? Can we substitute one for another and expect the same result or should we adjust the percentage in the blend depending on which leaf we decide to use? My experience with Krumovgrad and its extreme bitterness tell me that in case of Orientals the 1 to 1 exchange is not possible.

I realize that my test is subjective and these differences might not be as impactful in the final result and the blend we try to produce, especially if we use a group like WLT Orientals. They show close similarities in my test.

Also, the group of commercial tobaccos shows some closeness in their attributes.

There is another attribute that is an important factor in selection – the aroma each leaf will produce, but this will have to be for another test.

In summary, this was very educational run, and it might be the only way to learn how each leaf will impact the final product.

Wiktor
 
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greenmonster714

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#26
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

I'm glad to see after all this testing, tasting, and grading you find the wlt leaf is by far the better product over commercial and Leafonly.

Is there something specific your trying to do with these Tobaccos? I use them in blends a lot in pipe tobacco. I kinda relate the bitterness of a tobacco to food. When I eat a nice spring salad there are usually leaves in there that are bitter. The rest of the salad tends to blend well if properly done. So, bitter isn't really a bad thing. Not if it can be countered/enhanced with a more flavorful leaf.
 

alPol05

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#27
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

Is there something specific your trying to do with these Tobaccos?
I thought I explained what I am trying to do. If it is not clear, here is an example:

Since you like salads, imagine that someone gave you 15 different chili peppers that you have never seen. They are all lined up in a row on the table in front of you. You were told that you can use any of these in your salad. I assume you will taste each before putting one into your salad. After you are done with your tests, you will organize them all from mildest to the hottest and number each or give it a name. When you are ready to mix your salad you now know that you will use no. 5, since it is the one that you like the most and it will provide exactly a spiciness you desire. This is exactly what I am trying to do with different tobacco leaves.

Trust me, I am not trying to build a rocket, propelled with tobacco and fly to the moon.

Wiktor
 

deluxestogie

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#28
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

  1. Commercial blending tobaccos are all cased. They are all cased. The difference between commercial Izmir and WLT Izmir is that WLT Izmir is just WLT Izmir, whereas commercial Izmir is Izmir plus some casing. So, whole leaf tobaccos are pure, and not adulterated with casing.
  2. A complex pipe tobacco blend is an attempt to control a number of different, competing characteristics of the resulting blend. But like a plate of spaghetti, if you adjust something on one side of the plate, something moves on the other side. You could do your blending in such a way that one specific characteristic remains unchanged, from one component to the next, similar component (i.e. adjust blend proportion of Oriental "spiciness"), but that would alter the proportions of everything else in the blend. Your choice.
  3. When I list a recipe with a vague ingredient, such as "Oriental", I usually apply that same recipe, regardless of the specific Oriental (or mix of Orientals), fully expecting a difference in the final taste and aroma. And that's okay.
  4. I have no idea what sensation you are describing as "bitterness" or "spiciness". I can't envision what would order your WLT Orientals in that way. That's just an aspect of the human condition that we must all embrace.
Bob
 

alPol05

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#29
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

4. I have no idea what sensation you are describing as "bitterness" or "spiciness". I can't envision what would order your WLT Orientals in that way. That's just an aspect of the human condition that we must all embrace.
Bob
The sensation of "bitterness" or "spiciness" for me means stinging, tingling, burning. It is very similar to a sensation one will have after swallowing a small scoop of ground black pepper or any other hot spice. I am sure you did smoke oriental leaf, like Izmir or any other. Did you have a similar sensation to mine?

Wiktor
 

deluxestogie

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#30
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

I can't say that I have ever experienced such a sensation with smoking tobacco. It is certainly possible to experience tongue bite from Orientals, though it is far more prominent with flue-cured leaf. The only remedy for tongue bite, other than blending approaches, is to use a wider shred (provides a slower burn) and puff the pipe more slowly.

On the other hand, some individuals experience tastes that others do not. This can be genetically determined. (an example: http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/basics/ptc/ )

Bob
 

greenmonster714

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#31
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

All this testing of leaf could be it's own thread dedicated just for rating tastes and later aroma. Then bring the end product to this thread. I'm interested in seeing what you come up with blend wise. But there's also the fact that every batch of tobacco is different in suttle ways from year to year. At least in the case of pure leaf. Commercial blends can make their blends more consistent buy using casings of the same content over and over making that slight difference less noticable. I'm guessing at this idea but in my mind it makes sense. This kind of testing could go on forever really.
 

deluxestogie

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#32
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

Most premium cigar makers, when they introduce a new cigar line, purchase at least a 3 to 5 year supply of the leaf ingredients all at the same time, and from the same farm and crop year. Beyond that, as an established blend begins to run low on the original ingredients, the blender attempts to come as close as possible with new purchases, and also alters the blend if necessary, to compensate as much as possible for the change. (That partially accounts for the ever-changing Latakia percentage in the now-extinct Balkan Sobranie smoking mixture. The availability of Syrian Latakia fell, while that of Cyprian Latakia rose. They are different.) With regard to commercial aromatic pipe tobaccos, I believe you are correct. The nature of the leaf in their blends is secondary to the added flavorants. Commercially available pipe "blending" varietals actually do vary with time.

That's their problem. By contrast, we get to explore the dynamic nature of our available blending components, making the process more like cooking from basic ingredients, rather than using pre-packaged stuff. (Individual eggs have a different flavor. And hen's eggs change noticeably from autumn to spring.
What about duck eggs? They won't beat up to a fluffy omelette or a puffy meringue.)

It would be convenient for those searching for pipe tobacco recipes if this thread were exclusively recipes, but then we would lose a lot of valuable back and forth on what those individual ingredients in the recipes actually mean. I've managed to discourage postings of tutifruiti-avocado-kale pipe recipes in this particular thread, but side discussions about "Oriental" are helpful. Though the Orientals can be loosely generalized, it's almost as non-specific as talking about "American" tobacco.

Bob
 

alPol05

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#33
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

It is certainly possible to experience tongue bite from Orientals, though it is far more prominent with flue-cured leaf. The only remedy for tongue bite, other than blending approaches, is to use a wider shred (provides a slower burn) and puff the pipe more slowly.
Bob
What I described in my post is not a tongue bite. Although I know what the tongue bite is, and I had experience with it in the past, I don't anymore. I smoke dry tobaccos, and all tobacco I shred is quite a wide cut. it resembles cube cut. I smoke slow and sometimes take a deep puff. I also do not smoke aromatics. My pipes are always freshly cleaned before smoking.

Wiktor
 

alPol05

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#34
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

I'm interested in seeing what you come up with blend wise.
I am not trying to "come up" with anything. I am trying to learn about tobaccos I will use and how they affect my taste when I smoke them outside of a blend. If you have experience in that I would like to hear it. Did you do any test-smoking of any oriental? If yes, what did you experience in your mouth?

Wiktor
 

alPol05

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#35
In my post above I described the experience with test-smoking several "Oriental" varietals, how they tasted during smoking and what feeling I had in my mouth after smoking. I would like to hear from anybody who did similar testing and their experience. Thanks,

Wiktor
 

deluxestogie

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#36
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

Orientals that I have grown as well as smoked:
  1. Bafra
  2. Balikesir
  3. Çelikhan
  4. Cyprus Latakia mw
  5. Cyprus Oriental mw
  6. Djebel 174
  7. Izmir-Karabaglar
  8. Izmir-Ozbas
  9. Mutki
  10. Prancak N-1
  11. Prilep 66-9/7
  12. Prilep 79-94
  13. Samsun
  14. Samsun Maden
  15. Shirazi
  16. Smyrna #9
  17. Tasova
  18. Xanthi-yaka 18a
  19. Yayladag
Commercial Orientals I have smoked:
  • Xanthi
  • Izmir
  • Basma
  • Katerini
  • Samsun
  • Bursa
  • Prilep
  • Yenidje
None of them were bitter or painful or peppery. Each has its own floral quality and intensity. Each has a different strength of nicotine, though generally lower that that of most non-Orientals. The aromas range from soft and subtle to a more intense "Turkish" aroma. Mutki was the mildest. The Shirazi was the strongest. All of them are suitable as the Oriental in my blend recipes.

Bob
 

burge

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#37
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

A few days ago I posted a message about the troubles I have with one of the Oriental leaves. I identified it to be a Krumovgrad leaf from LeafOnly. As promised, I tested all Oriental tobaccos I currently have and here are my observations:

I created a scale from 1 to 10 to illustrate the bitterness I experience while smoking each leaf, where 10 represent the bitterness of Krumovgrad. All tobaccos create soreness in my mouth to the same degree as bitterness.

a. Krumovgrad-LeafOnly - 10
b. Turkish (commercial) - 4
c. Smyrna (commercial) – 5
d. Izmir (commercial) – 6
e. Stokkebye No. 313 Macedonian Mix (commercial) - 5
f. Samsun-WLT - 1
g. Basma-WLT – 2
h. Izmir-WLT - 3

As we can see, all Orientals create a degree of bitterness when smoked which, if I understand correctly, is described on the commercial website as spiciness.

The Krumovgrad leaf is the most bitter in the lineup, and I will never use it. I also would not recommend this leaf to anybody.

All commercial tobaccos create a degree of bitterness and soreness, and it is much higher in all samples but the WLT leaves.

WLT lineup is the most suitable for me. It provides the most delicate impact on the blend. However, it is interesting to realize that each of these leaves appears to exert a different level of bitterness (spiciness).

The difference in spiciness points to another issue: how interchangeable are these leaves in the blend? Can we substitute one for another and expect the same result or should we adjust the percentage in the blend depending on which leaf we decide to use? My experience with Krumovgrad and its extreme bitterness tell me that in case of Orientals the 1 to 1 exchange is not possible.

I realize that my test is subjective and these differences might not be as impactful in the final result and the blend we try to produce, especially if we use a group like WLT Orientals. They show close similarities in my test.

Also, the group of commercial tobaccos shows some closeness in their attributes.

There is another attribute that is an important factor in selection – the aroma each leaf will produce, but this will have to be for another test.

In summary, this was very educational run, and it might be the only way to learn how each leaf will impact the final product.

Wiktor
As mentioned leaf only is commercial tobacco leaves. I find I really taste the difference. Before I got into leaf I was smoking the higher end tobaccos. For people who have not had that type of smoking experience the other stuff is probably okay but for us who have had quality tobacco Dons and Bonners is the exclusive 50 dollars a pound plus. My conclusion is its the quality of the leaf.
 

alPol05

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#38
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

[/QUOTE]
None of them were bitter or painful or peppery. Each has its own floral quality and intensity. Each has a different strength of nicotine, though generally lower that of most non-Orientals. The aromas range from soft and subtle to a more intense "Turkish" aroma. Mutki was the mildest. The Shirazi was the strongest. All of them are suitable as the Oriental in my blend recipes. Bob


Thanks much, Bob. This is a very impressive list and I am sure many hours of test-smoking. I truly wish I would have an access to at least portion of your list. Somehow, Orientals became intriguing to me and most of what I read about tobaccos was and still is about Orientals. My intention is to find a way out of this pickle that I am finding myself and it might require another round of tests with a better plan.

Wiktor
 

alPol05

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#39
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

As mentioned leaf only is commercial tobacco leaves. I find I really taste the difference. Before I got into leaf I was smoking the higher end tobaccos. For people who have not had that type of smoking experience the other stuff is probably okay but for us who have had quality tobacco Dons and Bonners is the exclusive 50 dollars a pound plus. My conclusion is its the quality of the leaf.
Burge, I will emphasize this again - I am not trying to evaluate the quality of leaf from different sources. I do know that WLT provides very good, quality leaf. I made several purchases from Don and I am happy. I am trying to explore the taste of tobacco when test-smoking.

Wiktor
 

burge

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#40
Re: Pure Tobacco Pipe Blends You Can Make

Burge, I will emphasize this again - I am not trying to evaluate the quality of leaf from different sources. I do know that WLT provides very good, quality leaf. I made several purchases from Don and I am happy. I am trying to explore the taste of tobacco when test-smoking.

Wiktor
Personally I believe and maybe Bob can clarify it has everything to do with the quality of the leaf in my opinion. I mean you could get the same leaf that is mass produced and It tastes okay but not great. I believe if you take the same seed same soil and look after that leaf I would be of the opinion tha that leaf will tastes better. It all in how the leaf is prepared. .
 
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