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Whole Leaf Tobacco

Smokeless is coming to New Zealand

KiwiGrown

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#1
Sometime this year after a 28 year ban on the sale of any tobacco product for oral use except smoking, New Zealand will allow with approval (Company proves there product is less harmful then smoking) the sale of smokeless tobacco products.

I've never tried a smokeless tobacco before, I smoke a pipe at home but at work I use a e-cigarette for a nic hit.

The problem with the e-cigarette is I don't get along with all these little girl flavours or horrible fake tobacco flavours they seem to make, to make things worse it never really seems quite satisfying and it gives me a headache.

I've grown some rustica this year I suspect won't make it into my pipe blends, I'll also have a bunch of unused mid ribs from my virginia and burley.

What I was considering is making some sort of smokeless for discreet use at work, I really don't want to spit all day long or have a big lump sitting in the side of my mouth.

So this sort of leaves me with Snus or Snuff, I've done a few crude trials of both, taking some dried crumbs of a pipe blend I enjoy I grind it with my fingers into a powder and sniff it.

Honestly not bad, I enjoy the sort of eye opening hit it gives me almost like a instant cup of coffee, problem is the hit doesn't last me long enough before I want another and at work not sure how I would go about discreetly sniffing.

Next trail I take lump of baccy roll it into a slug and place it in my upper lip, looks discreet in the mirror, I can talk normally and I like the taste even if it's mild and no nic hit, I imagine with proper cooking it would taste great and release more nic.

So I'm thinking of cooking a batch of Snus using the rustica and mid ribs from my other baccy.

My questions are do I have to ferment the tobacco before making snus from it ? Will it affect the taste ?

Can you cook the snus and then let it dry for storage and/or use for snuff ?

Lastly and most importantly, I get canker sores quite often but very rarely at the front of my mouth, would you think the snus would make this worse ?

Also which do you think is the best snus recipe, there is quite a few on here, the Copenhagen quest guy seems very happy with his or is he making chew or dip its all a bit confusing.

Sorry for the long post, have zero experience with this stuff.
 

deluxestogie

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#2
I'll address the canker sores (know medically as aphthous ulcers). Even today, the cause is not understood. There seems to be no correlation with tobacco use, with one exception. Cessation of smoking sometimes precipitates an outbreak. There may also be a correlation with consumption of some food additives: cochineal red (62.5%), azorubine (45.8%), and amaranth (25%).

https://emedicine.medscape.com/article/867080-overview

Bob
 

Jitterbugdude

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#3
Kiwi... No, you do not need to ferment your leaf first. As soon as it has cured brown it is ready to be made in to snus/dip. The Nordic countries developed a process ( I think it is called Gothtek or something similar) that by processing the tobacco as soon as it is cured there isn't enough time for the bacteria to convert any of the alkaloids into Tobacco Specific Nitrose Amines (TSNAs). A few years back they petitioned the EFSA ( the U.S. equivalent of the FDA) to re-look at the data pertaining to snus and cancer. The data showed a negligible to nil association so the EFSA allowed snus to be markeedt a little more freely than before. This might be why Kiwi-Land is now allowing it back into the country.

After I cook my snus/dip I separate the big batch in to smaller batches for different flavors such as wintergreen, orange, apple cinnamon etc. These smaller batchec I place into plastic bags and store in the freezer. I believe most commercial snus will mold (or is it mould? :) ) if left non refrigerated for a length of time. I added xylitol and vegetable glycerine to mine. It almost entirely eliminates mold growth but I still am vigilant.

Snus might make your canker sores worse depending on the final pH of your snus and the amount of salt you add. I find that most of the snus recipes floating around use waaaay to much salt. A little trick when first starting out is to change the position of your baccy. Left side one day, right side the next, etc


EDIT: The correct name of the process is "Gothia Tek"
 
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KiwiGrown

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#4
It's true about the canker sores I've had blood tests and had a few medications over the years since I was a young boy and it's done next to nothing. It seems to run in my family.

That's great news thanks Jitter, I've got plenty of leaf to do a trial batch with then, I think it was Smokesahoy who was saying he stores his dry?

I think I'll try all natural flavour to start if it's horrible I can always hide the bad taste with flavour ?
 

jojjas

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#5
Kiwi , i have been use snus daily for more than 40 year´s , and i have not yet noticed any increase of canker sores , and it´s a comfortable way to get some nicotine during work and other activities

If you use rustica as source for snus , be a little careful with the amount of sodium carbonate , maybe exclude it totally , it depends how much nic you want in the final result ( to high nicotine percentage gives me headache )

I usually add a couple of tablespoon´s of whisky or rum in my snus , mainly for flavor and taste but also to prevent it from molding , then keep it cold or in the freezer .
I had to do a test once , how long i could keep it in room temperature before it mold , but after 3 month without any sign of mold i give up and consume it , but the taste and flavor was mostly gone , so keep it in the freezer until it´s time to consume it , that way it taste much more fresh

Most swedes use snus pouches ( it´s much easier handling in the mouth and like JBD says change position of the snus-pouch ) and if you think you want to try make your own pouches , you could buy them here http://www.tilbudet.se/prillanbags.htm or make them of thin filter material like tea-bags or similar

Mikael
 

KiwiGrown

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#6
Thank you Mikael, I am going to use stems from other varietys and could also use some flue cured if needed, I have quite a tolerance to nicotine normally.

I had considered the nicotine might be high but I also had read sodium carbonate can cause irritation if that is true I would think a low amount would be preferable for me as irritation would cause me to get canker sores.

Do you not need the sodium carbonate for the fermentation reaction in snus ?

Have you used Gin in your snus before ?

Do you think it's possible to flavour the snus with earl grey tea for example or better to just use essential oil ?
 

jojjas

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#7
i usually add the stems i remove from my cigarleafs when i roll cigars , i think that the snus have better characteristics with stems in it ( easier to form a little ball , to put under the upperlip , stay in place better , not get juicy that so quickly and start floating round in my mouth )

The use of sodium carbonate is used to get the nicotine possible to absorb in the mouth , more sodium carbonate used , more nicotine absorbed by your mouth

I have never used gin , but i flavor the snus with juniper oil in one of my recipies , and the major taste in gin is just juniper , but please try with gin and feel free to leave a comment about it

About earl grey i would recommend essential oil , you get a better result with essential oil´s and it´s easier to dose it , with tea i think the flavor result will be to weak and the snus to wet
 

KiwiGrown

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I only ask about tea because I can't find an Bergamont oil that is food grade locally, only therapeutic grade but I think it's considered food safe it just doesn't have FDA food approval.

I think I will keep the rustica flour separate and start at 25% rustica of total flour to see how strong it is, some rustica are not to strong but this is a unknown variety I can't be sure.

I will try gin, when you say too wet, how can I tell by feel how wet should it be ?

Remember I can't buy snus in New Zealand yet, I have no idea how wet it should be, most recipes say 40% or 50% I'm not sure what that would look or feel like.
 

Hasse SWE

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#9
I only ask about tea because I can't find an Bergamont oil that is food grade locally, only therapeutic grade but I think it's considered food safe it just doesn't have FDA food approval.I think I will keep the rustica flour separate and start at 25% rustica of total flour to see how strong it is, some rustica are not to strong but this is a unknown variety I can't be sure.I will try gin, when you say too wet, how can I tell by feel how wet should it be ?Remember I can't buy snus in New Zealand yet, I have no idea how wet it should be, most recipes say 40% or 50% I'm not sure what that would look or feel like.
I noted that "jojjas" gave you a link to a Swedish web shop. If you contact them you can order different tastes (and other thing) that we in Sweden often use when we make our own "snus". I most say that it was a really good and helpful link. But if they have to high prizes for you please let me know perhaps I can found someone that have better prices (I don't know how good or bad prices they have when they send outside Sweden but her the prices are"normally")..
 

KiwiGrown

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Thank you, I would have never noticed I can't speak a word of swedish and I couldn't find an English translation, there prices are much cheaper then using locally sourced flavouring and the shipping I'm not sure if they ship to New Zealand it seems to cheap.

Do you think one of the brands of flavour they offer is better then the other ?
 

Hasse SWE

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#12
In just aromas they were expensive (I get almost two bottles for what they take for one). I use to have smoke, anise, citrus and Bergamot when I make "do your own snus kit" but when I make from the tobacco I growing myself I only have little smoke taste in it.
 

KiwiGrown

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#13
Have you used rustica, what did you think of its flavour ?

I think I will enjoy plain flavoured snus, I enjoy chewing on stems of virginia.

If my tobacco is dry tonight I'll start a batch after work, if I hate the taste I can always flavour it later.
 

KiwiGrown

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#14
I put a 200g batch on tonight, 25% Rustica, 25% Sun cured Virginia and 50% Flue cured Virginia. All my own home grown tobacco, smells like a farm this snus.

I had a snuff of the flour and its pretty strong but good strong, stronger and I'd feel sick.
 

Hasse SWE

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#15
In just aromas they were expensive (I get almost two bottles for what they take for one). I use to have smoke, anise, citrus and Bergamot when I make "do your own snus kit" but when I make from the tobacco I growing myself I only have little smoke taste in it.
I have contacted them and they send it like"normally letter" that means letter 21 SKR.Or bigger letter < 250g 75 SKR.
 

Hasse SWE

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I put a 200g batch on tonight, 25% Rustica, 25% Sun cured Virginia and 50% Flue cured Virginia. All my own home grown tobacco, smells like a farm this snus. I had a snuff of the flour and its pretty strong but good strong, stronger and I'd feel sick.
Yes but N.Rustica ain't my favorite. I think they are tasteless and little boring. But I like to grow them and that is pretty much the reason that I also use them in tobacco mixes. But I also know that some people really love N.Rustica so just that I don't like them doesn't mean that they are boring, give them a chance and.. Perhaps mix them with some Dark-air or Burley and your dreams perhaps gets reality..
 

KiwiGrown

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#18
I used the wrong salt, will the iodizied salt ruin the snus ?

I'm not sure what you mean Haase, are you saying 5mL of flavour per 72g of Snus ?
 

Hasse SWE

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#19
It does not matter if the salt is iodinated or not.I prefer rough (?) salt to give me a better result. No, it's my phone that does not work together. What I would write was that a bottle containing 5 ml has a weight of 72 g
 

Hasse SWE

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#20
I was also write alot of people use the hole bottle and other taste but I don't like the taste of perfume so I have less than the half in 1 kilograms tobacco..
 
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