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Is there any way to mellow out shredded tobacco ?

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burge

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What do you normally smoke? In some cases the Virginia in all the flue cured are good. The red or double bright leaf is a little stronger. Compared to a packaged cigarette the nicotine levels are good in all the leaf varieties.
 

davek14

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Ammonia is created within the leaf during oxidation of the leaf's proteins. If there is no oxidation, then there is no ammonia produced. The oxidation is not caused by microbes or air, but by two oxidase enzymes still present within the leaf after the lamina have died. Both require moisture to function in breaking down albuminous proteins and carbohydrates. One of the enzymes is destroyed if the leaf reaches 141°F, so is lacking in flue-cured leaf after it has been flue-cured. The more heat-stable enzyme survives and functions up to about 191°F. This second oxidase enzyme operates much more slowly than the first, but it is what permits flue-cured leaf to very slowly age. Once leaf has been heated above 191°F, it can no longer age. So toasted leaf and Cavendish or otherwise boiled or steamed leaf no longer has the ability to age in the sense that we understand tobacco aging.

"Sweating" is an imprecise term with many meanings. "Fermentation", likewise offers its own confusions. Both of them refer to conditions that allow the process of oxidation discussed in the previous paragraph. The leaf must have some moisture (is not completely dry), and must be at a temperature of about 60°F or higher. Since the oxidation reaction is temperature dependent, the higher the temp, the more rapidly the reaction runs (up to the point that the enzyme itself is cooked or denatured).

Cured leaf that is hanging in a humid shed or tobacco barn while temperatures rise (as in the springtime) will resume enzymatic oxidation. The rate of that oxidation tends to cycle with the ambient temperature. Once most of the proteins and carbs have been oxidized (incidentally releasing ammonia radicals from certain proteins), the rate slows dramatically, though it can continue for years at a snail's pace.

Cured leaf that is closely packed within bales or into piles (pilones) acts as its own insulation, so that the slight, chemical heat generated by the oxidation is trapped, increasing the oxidation rate and thereby generating even more heat. So baled or piled tobacco can warm itself (even to the point of starting a smoldering fire, if the conditions are just right). When this happens in bales, simply separating the individual bales with a slight air space will often be enough to slow or halt the process. When this occurs during intentional "fermentation" piles, the temperature is allowed to reach a previously decided max temp, at which the pile is broken down and reassembled, and the process started over again.

"Aging" of tobacco refers to exactly the same chemical process of oxidation. Once most of the work of oxidation has been completed, "aging" appears as a subtle, gradual process. But it's the very same thing happening (at a slower rate) as happens with "sweating" and "fermentation".

We often say things like "burley is not fermented," and "cigar leaf is always fermented." The only real difference is that most cigar varieties require a lot more oxidation to tame the proteins and carbohydrates, when compared to burley or other non-cigar varieties. "Fermenting" non-cigar varieties does not cause them to smell or taste like cigar varieties. Those distinct characteristics are inherent within the specific tobacco varieties.

Kilning
A kiln allows you to achieve the moisture and temperature conditions required for optimal oxidation rates. It's not dependent on bailing or creating 5000 pound piles, or waiting for the weather to be just right. The kiln enforces the humidity, and enforces the desired temperature. It's the same as "sweating" or "fermentation" or "aging". Once the leaf has mostly oxidized its proteins and carbohydrates, all that remains to be accomplished is a "resting" and "airing" period (days to weeks) in order to allow the newly created ammonia that is still dissolved within the moisture of the leaf lamina to dissipate into the air. Allowing the leaf to completely dry (go out of case) can speed this process of ammonia evaporation. The leaf, of course, needs to be brought back into low case prior to handling.

If kilned or "sweated" or "fermented" or "aged" tobacco has an ammonia smell, it means that additional oxidation has taken place.

Bob

I would like permission to cut and paste this comprehensive explanation to other (pipe smoking) forums.
 

deluxestogie

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I would like permission to cut and paste this comprehensive explanation to other (pipe smoking) forums.
That would be fine. Please do attribute it to the Fair Trade Tobacco Forum (https://fairtradetobacco.com/). If you paste the same information into too many different forums, it may be annoying to some folks on those forums.

Bob
 

HighDesertHippie

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Take the leap. Go to http://www.wholeleaftobacco.com and order a shredder and one of the cigarette "blend kits": http://www.wholeleaftobacco.com/Whole-Leaf-Tobacco-Blends_c17.htm

Bob
Definitely get the shredder. I am sitting here with 5 pounds of whole leaf tobacco and a pair of scissors telling you it gets old quick.

I would agree with stogie that any of the blend kits would yield a far superior smoke, I was in the same place as you buying the cheapest tobacco I could stand to smoke.... all the whole leaf I have had so far is much better than that, and definitely more satisfying to smoke than the crap they triple spray with poison and then charge you to the bottom of your pocket for.....if you don't mind me butting in and saying.
 

burge

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Definitely get the shredder. I am sitting here with 5 pounds of whole leaf tobacco and a pair of scissors telling you it gets old quick.

I would agree with stogie that any of the blend kits would yield a far superior smoke, I was in the same place as you buying the cheapest tobacco I could stand to smoke.... all the whole leaf I have had so far is much better than that, and definitely more satisfying to smoke than the crap they triple spray with poison and then charge you to the bottom of your pocket for.....if you don't mind me butting in and saying.
It's more than that. Ironic for me I was buying the expensive tobacco's like Peter Stockleby. Now I can get back to a Canadian blend. Out of the cheaper blends the only ones any good are products from Mark Ryan D&R tobaccos. Since the conversion from cigarette tobacco to pipe tobacco its still good but not the same. Its about 19- dollars a pound on sale. This is better tobacco. Danish by ps last I checked is 160 for 5lbs. Kendal Gold is 50 to 75 dollars a pound. Now we are getting into the quality of the virginia here. I do try to age mine. Mark Ryan bought all the perique so your getting the real stuff at a excellent price. The competition honestly is inconsistent in quality. The good order cosmetically perfect does not have the taste and its just commercial tobacco and that goes the same with taste. I aged some and it tasted the same. The second order everything was all broken and basically shake no good leaves or anything and I ordered stuff and it was completely full of sand and dirt.
 

vilbertob

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I put some Virginia Bright leaf in my kiln at about 48 Celsius with 85% umidity. Now It Is the sixth week and the smell of ammonia is still very strong. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong?
 

Darkthirty

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Take it up to 50-53°C.

Bob
I've got some leaf that hasn't been kilned, some has been hanging for a couple years, some in tubs. What I'm not understanding is how during kilning if the tobacco is sealed in jars or bags, how is it possible to oxidize and off gas?
 

deluxestogie

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In the presence of oxygen and water, the oxidation will occur at a rate that increases with the temperature (up to a point). Ammonia is created by the oxidation of certain amino acids, and will dissipate when the container is opened. That's part of the "resting" process that follows kilning.

I am way better at saying what the leaf does, rather than explaining why it does it.

I've had leaf hanging in ambient temperatures for years. It might reach the same quality as kilned and aged leaf, but ambient humidity and temperature mean that it would likely take a decade.

Bob
 

Knucklehead

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Then kilning open hung tobacco and venting during the process will shorten/eliminate the resting process?
It’s almost a moot point. How much kilned tobacco can you smoke in the few days it will take for the remainder to rest? If it tastes good straight out of the kiln, then by all means smoke it immediately. There are no health reasons behind the rest recommendation, some of us have just found a few days rest improves the flavor.
 

Darkthirty

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It’s almost a moot point. How much kilned tobacco can you smoke in the few days it will take for the remainder to rest? If it tastes good straight out of the kiln, then by all means smoke it immediately. There are no health reasons behind the rest recommendation, some of us have just found a few days rest improves the flavor.
Just trying to figure out the logics of kilning...
 

Knucklehead

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Just trying to figure out the logics of kilning...

Its all good. Most of us are still trying to figure out the ins and outs of it all ourselves. Thinking outside the box and experimentation has gotten us where we are now, which was nowhere until just a few short years ago as flue curing was only done on a commercial scale. Now we have home built hobby flue cure chambers. I don’t even know where kilning originated but someone had the idea to speed age tobacco by providing the ideal conditions for that aging to happen. Don’t be afraid to ask questions, searching for those answers helps all of us.
 

Darkthirty

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Its all good. Most of us are still trying to figure out the ins and outs of it all ourselves. Thinking outside the box and experimentation has gotten us where we are now, which was nowhere until just a few short years ago as flue curing was only done on a commercial scale. Now we have home built hobby flue cure chambers. I don’t even know where kilning originated but someone had the idea to speed age tobacco by providing the ideal conditions for that aging to happen. Don’t be afraid to ask questions, searching for those answers helps all of us.
I color cure in cardboard boxes. Only takes a couple days that way, and I have control over the situation. Haven't built a kiln yet and don't want to do it twice, so i'm working on a game plan.
 

Knucklehead

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I color cure in cardboard boxes. Only takes a couple days that way, and I have control over the situation. Haven't built a kiln yet and don't want to do it twice, so i'm working on a game plan.
Been there. I read all the kiln threads and builds and still built mine my way, rather than duplicate one of the many already shown. Where you keep it, how you build it, your skill level, how you plan to use it, how much you grow, etc. will all come into play in deciding what will work best for you. That planning stage is the most important one. Holler if we can help.
 

burge

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I put some Virginia Bright leaf in my kiln at about 48 Celsius with 85% umidity. Now It Is the sixth week and the smell of ammonia is still very strong. Is this normal or am I doing something wrong?
I opened a bag from 6 or 7 years ago when I open a bag that old there ammonia smell is unbearable that is the leaf aging. What allows it to develop is oxygen and pressing the tobacco leaf. I hand press mine is a plastic cigarette tub it ferments then ages. I mist the top of my can and the juices meld together making a fantastick smoke. The misspelling is not a mistake. The first puff taste perfumery and flowery. Now its finally getting to die for. It is superb and this is the stuff that when they first got it was harsh. Shredding activates enzymes and facilitates aging I believe. Mind you to age leaf it is always best to age it in the whole form.
 
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Darkthirty

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I opened a bag from 6 or 7 years ago when I open a bag that old there ammonia smell is unbearable that is the leaf aging. What allows it to develop is oxygen and pressing the tobacco leaf. I hand press mine is a plastic cigarette tub it ferments then ages. I mist the top of my can and the juices meld together making a fantastick smoke. The misspelling is not a mistake. The first puff taste perfumery and flowery. Now its finally getting to die for. It is superb and this is the stuff that when they first got it was harsh. Shredding activates enzymes and facilitates aging I believe. Mind you to age leaf it is always best to age it in the whole form.
I'm trying to understand oxidization in a vacuum. if we're attempting to accelerate oxidization with heat and humidity, wouldn't it make sense to also have an air exchange to facilitate off-gassing? Rust is slow oxidization, fire is rapid oxidization, neither will occur without oxygen.... Got me stymied!
 

deluxestogie

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There is a difference between "a vacuum" and a closed container. If you attach a vacuum pump to a container, and reduce the pressure to near zero ATM, then there may be insufficient oxygen for oxidation to occur. If you just compress tobacco into a closed container, there is plenty of oxygen. The latter, when compared to an open container, will, of course, accumulate oxidation products (e.g. ammonia) in the head space, but this will simply waft away, once the container is opened.

Bob
 
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