Whole Leaf Tobacco

A Few Homemade Dip Questions From A Noob!

CopeCrazy

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I have been studying up on making my own dip and had a few questions. I haven't read every single thread, YET, probably because most of them I read there are lot of tangents that open up... not a bad thing at all. I'm still in the sponge phase of my tobacco education, soaking up all the knowledge I can. I'm sure this post could be linked to several thread subjects, but smokeless is my main interest. Below are the main questions I have been collecting during my studies.
Whatever one refers to for placing tobacco under your cheek as a means of using tobacco, dip/moist snuff/snus, in this post I'll call it dip. I was wondering about the different varieties of tobacco grown for making dip. I thought that I had read somewhere that US tobac uses some oriental to blend their dip, but I have also read @squeezyjohn
{ http://www.snuson.com/entry.php?332-Home-made-snus-an-instruction-manual } say that orientals aren't a good variety for homemade snus. Why wouldn't a sun cured Turkish be any good for making dip?
Another question about the varieties has to do with Rustica. Since it has a higher nicotine level than other tobaccos could LESS Alkali, for absorption, be needed in the dip recipe?
As far as the flavoring goes, I had a question about FLAVORED alcohols (like all of those flavored vodkas they have now), has anyone found that the "flavor" that was imparted to the alcohol (ex: Lemon, Orange, Apple ect. ) in turn imparted into the dip?
I'm new to pipe smoking and of course I was originally drawn to aromatics. I'm beginning to enjoy the qualities of non aromatics now, but I was wondering if aromatic pipe tobaccos (ex: Vanillas or Cherries flavors) where able to be turned into good dips using the "Snus" making dip recipes? Does in impart those same flavors into the dips taste? Does Cavendish make a good homemade dip?
I am going to try my hand at growing my own tobacco this year as well making dip. So far this year I have 4 different varieties growing (still small seedlings). I have started Yellow Twist Bud, Yellow Orinoco, Greenwood Dark and Little Crittenden seedlings. I just received some Black Mammoth and Rustica Tobacco and have plans to have them started early next week. My question here is about cutting seedlings. I haven't heard much about the reasoning for cutting seedlings before they are transplanted in to their final growing plots. I realise that it is needed in industrial setting to have all of the seedlings the same size, but I've seed small scale farmers doing it as well. Is this to help boost root development or is it to keep the seedlings from growing too "leggy"?
As I have already stated above there are a lot of topics here and I'm sure I could have broken this up to individual threads. Maybe I'll figure out how to LINK the different topics to different subjects so that I'll have more eyes on it and have my questions answered, but as the title goes... I'm a noob, so bare with me as I figure out this WONDERFUL website. Thank you EVERYONE for being here!!
 

deluxestogie

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cutting seedlings
Seedling leaves are clipped when they begin to shade their neighbors in the starting tray. The leaf clipping does stimulate root growth, as well as root production of nicotine (for protection of the baby leaves). If you grow your seedlings in crowded trays, then clipping two or three times prior to transplant usually improves the overall quality of all those transplants. (Don't trim the growth tip of the stalk.) I usually cut off about 1/2 to 2/3 of each leaf. This will not reduce your production of full size leaves.




Bob
 

CopeCrazy

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... I had one additional question as to do with making dip. After you complete your two cooking sessions, it is said that you have to let the batch "age" for a month. It usually says to cool it in a sealed container. I understand the sodium carbonate, punk ash, ect. needs time to work on the tobaccos pH as well as flavorings needing time to balance out, but what are the smells everyone talks that about during and after the second cook? Wasn't it ammonia? I've heard it said that it can be dangerous to cook it in your kitchen, due to the WIFE getting pissed about the smell. What smells should one expect and shoot for? Should the batch of tobacco be opened up and mixed often to aerate in order let out ammonia or some other unpleasant taste? Or should you directly vacuum seal the batch after it cools? I've also seen here that freezing a batch "Freezes" the aging. Will you lock in a specific ripeness of the batch by throwing it in the freezer?
Thanks!
 

19RS83

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I am in your boat! However, I am trying to see if I can age mine without cooking it? There are so many good thread here, I am just trying to understand a majority of what is being said as it relates to Dip, Snuff and Snuss. Thanks for your thread and please keep me in the loop. I will be ordering some leaves **** tomorrow and hopefully starting something up as soon as they arrive! Right now it appears my only real options in the "Organic" field are American & Canadian Flu Cured and Burley. I'm not a health freak but I dip two cans a day, so if I can limit some of the chemicals I'm placing into my mouth 14+ Hours a day, the better.
 
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19RS83

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I forgot to add the last option is the Maryland 609 from Whole Leaf. Gotta lot to learn.
 

Jitterbugdude

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Here is a brief description of how I make dip... along with some explanations a long the way.

1. Pack a mason jar with shredded tobacco to which I have added a salt/water mixture to get it nice and moist (not sopping wet)
2. Cook for 8 hours at 185F. I'm not sure why you would want to do a double cook but for dip it would be a waste of time.
3. Pour hot tobacco into large metal bowl and add glycerine/sweetener.
4. Let cool/age for about a week. ( I keep the bowl on a counter top with a lid partially covering the bowl. I fluff up the dip once per day.
5. After about a week or two I will separate the dip into smaller batches and add my various flavorings.

So.. I like Yellow Twist Bud for my dip. It is fairly light in nicotine. I do not use any type of pH altering stuff such as sodium carbonate. Originally dip (snus etc) was made with up to 50% ground up stems. Stems have essentially no nicotine so I believe manufacturers started adjusting the pH in their mix to increase the nicotine absorption due to the stems. You do not need Sodium Carbonate for dip. I think this whole pH adjusting chemical thing began hundreds of years ago. Tobacco manufacturers had tons of stems left over from stripping the leaves for chew and pipe tobacco. So, what do you do with tons of stems? Use them as filler for dip. But that would make a weak product due to the low nicotine so add some Sodium Carbonate to increase the uptake of nicotine. This is a good example of a manufacturer turning his potential waste material into a profit instead of a loss.

For a sweetener I use Xylitol and pure Sucralose. Since I am going to have dip in my mouth I do not want to use sugar. Xylitol has excellent anti-tooth cavity properties as well as anti-microbial properties (the two being related).

The Glycerine is two fold. It has good anti-microbial properties and it adds "mouth feel" to the tobacco. This means that when you put dip in your mouth, all the flavor will not be sucked out in 30 seconds.

The reason I add my flavoring last is because I like a lot of variation in my dip. Sometimes I desire wintergreen, other times black licorice or even orange flavored. I usually make a big batch and after aging, break it up into smaller batches and store in the freezer. This is completely finished dip with the exception of the flavoring. If I am dipping wintergreen but have the urge for some apple cinnamon I just thaw a baggie of unflavored dip and add my flavoring.

Dip is easy.. don't over complicate things. As a matter of fact, you don't even need to cook your dip at all. That's just done to kill off any enzymes/bacteria that cause a rise in TSNAs.

If interested, let me know and I'll post my recipe (with quantities).
 

19RS83

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Thank You So Much! I believe in one of the threads you posted something similar as I was looking around, however this reads very straight to the point and simple with your creativity filling in the gaps. The only large question I have after reading this is with regards to measurements, specifically with the Glycerine. The sweeteners and flavors are a personal preference, but is there a specific amount as a base line for Glycerine. Thanks Rog.
 

Jitterbugdude

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Here's what I do for 1 small batch of dip.

3 cups of packed tobacco
Mix 1/2 tsp of salt to 60cc of water ( can double the water if you like.. it's an art more than a science)
Add the salt/water solution to the tobacco. Stir well and let it set for about 20-30 minutes. It will seem very dry at first but after about 20 minutes the tobacco will absorb all of the water.

Place in a small pint mason jar ( the flat squat kind). Place in a crock pot. Fill completely with water. You will need to add a weight to the top of the jar otherwise it will float. Make sure your jar is short enough to fit in your crock pot and completely covered in water.

Place in crockpot, slip in a temperature probe from your Thermostat. Set for 185F and cook for 8 hrs. I use hot tap water. It'll take about 2hours to reach 185 but that's ok. 8 hrs, for the overall process is fine.

After 8hrs use canning tongues (or a thick glove) and remove the jar. Pout contents into a big bowl.

Add: Xylitol- 2tsp, pure sucralose-2tsp and 2T Glycerine. Stir with your hands or a fork. Place partially covered for 1 to 2 weeks. It'll initially stink.
After the waiting period, try some. Then add a flavor of your choice. The amount of flavoring to add is very personal. Start light and add till you like the taste.
I store large amounts in the freezer.

Notes: 2T of glycerine makes a somewhat dry mix while 4T makes a wet mix. I like things sweet so 2tsp of pure sucralose might be too sweet for you. You just need to make small batches to find something you like.

Flavorings I like: Wintergreen, Anise, Orange , Maple and apple-cinnamon.

good luck.

I'm going to make a small batch in a few days. I'll try to take a bunch of pics and then post my process more thoroughly.
 

CopeCrazy

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I am in your boat! However, I am trying to see if I can age mine without cooking it? There are so many good thread here, I am just trying to understand a majority of what is being said as it relates to Dip, Snuff and Snuss. Thanks for your thread and please keep me in the loop. I will be ordering some leaves **** tomorrow and hopefully starting something up as soon as they arrive! Right now it appears my only real options in the "Organic" field are American & Canadian Flu Cured and Burley. I'm not a health freak but I dip two cans a day, so if I can limit some of the chemicals I'm placing into my mouth 14+ Hours a day, the better.
Yep! Sounds like we have similar tobacco usage habits.
 

CopeCrazy

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Would anyone have a reason to not use Turkish sun cured with this process? How about Indian Tobacco, has anyone tasted Rustica in dip? What's the taste like?
 

CopeCrazy

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Messages
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Here is a brief description of how I make dip... along with some explanations a long the way.

1. Pack a mason jar with shredded tobacco to which I have added a salt/water mixture to get it nice and moist (not sopping wet)
2. Cook for 8 hours at 185F. I'm not sure why you would want to do a double cook but for dip it would be a waste of time.
3. Pour hot tobacco into large metal bowl and add glycerine/sweetener.
4. Let cool/age for about a week. ( I keep the bowl on a counter top with a lid partially covering the bowl. I fluff up the dip once per day.
5. After about a week or two I will separate the dip into smaller batches and add my various flavorings.

So.. I like Yellow Twist Bud for my dip. It is fairly light in nicotine. I do not use any type of pH altering stuff such as sodium carbonate. Originally dip (snus etc) was made with up to 50% ground up stems. Stems have essentially no nicotine so I believe manufacturers started adjusting the pH in their mix to increase the nicotine absorption due to the stems. You do not need Sodium Carbonate for dip. I think this whole pH adjusting chemical thing began hundreds of years ago. Tobacco manufacturers had tons of stems left over from stripping the leaves for chew and pipe tobacco. So, what do you do with tons of stems? Use them as filler for dip. But that would make a weak product due to the low nicotine so add some Sodium Carbonate to increase the uptake of nicotine. This is a good example of a manufacturer turning his potential waste material into a profit instead of a loss.

For a sweetener I use Xylitol and pure Sucralose. Since I am going to have dip in my mouth I do not want to use sugar. Xylitol has excellent anti-tooth cavity properties as well as anti-microbial properties (the two being related).

The Glycerine is two fold. It has good anti-microbial properties and it adds "mouth feel" to the tobacco. This means that when you put dip in your mouth, all the flavor will not be sucked out in 30 seconds.

The reason I add my flavoring last is because I like a lot of variation in my dip. Sometimes I desire wintergreen, other times black licorice or even orange flavored. I usually make a big batch and after aging, break it up into smaller batches and store in the freezer. This is completely finished dip with the exception of the flavoring. If I am dipping wintergreen but have the urge for some apple cinnamon I just thaw a baggie of unflavored dip and add my flavoring.

Dip is easy.. don't over complicate things. As a matter of fact, you don't even need to cook your dip at all. That's just done to kill off any enzymes/bacteria that cause a rise in TSNAs.

If interested, let me know and I'll post my recipe (with quantities).
JBD, I've heard it said around these parts that the stems facilitate the "taste" that you want bestow, what are you thoughts on stems being used to hold on to flavor?
 

Jitterbugdude

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I should reiterate.. my formula is made for MY tastes. I like things sweet. My dip actually tastes like candy. If you are used to Cope that essentially has no sweetness I'd suggest leaving out the sucralose and cut the xylitol in half. The xylitol will definately help reduce mold issues along with the glycerine.

CC.. I've never used stems so I don't know. I'm still guessing that it was a marketing ploy developed centuries ago. Which sounds better?:

1. Try our special dip.. we use the left over stems from stripping that normally we used to pay someone to haul away to the dump

or

2. Try our special dip.. we use stems as part of the blend to enhance flavor absorption for a perfect dip experience.

Maybe someone will try both ways and report back. I'm happy with my 100% leaf dip and feel no need to try stems.
 

deluxestogie

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Having smoked stems alone, I can say that, on their own, they offer less nicotine and less flavor and aroma than leaf lamina. On the other hand, stems always tend to be more hygroscopic (attract and hold onto more moisture) than lamina, so perhaps there is some validity to a portion of stem retaining flavorants.

Bob
 

CopeCrazy

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Feeling a bit frustrated and sorry for my tobacco plants at the time being. I keep finding leaves broken off. As this being the first year I've ever tried to grow tobacco, I now understand why some places are not as suitable for growing tobacco as others. I currently live in a place that gets a lot of wind and my poor plants are being beaten up. I've lived in West Texas where the soil is wonderful and you could grow about anything there if you get water, but I don't think tobacco would grow well there due to the heavy wind. When and if I get back to my house in Georgia, I'm sure I'd have good luck growing there.
 

deluxestogie

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Keep the faith, CopeCrazy. If you hope for cigar wrappers, then tattered plants are a big problem. But for oral tobacco, it's not as troublesome an issue. Here in Virginia, I have wind damaged plants every year. Sometimes I lose a few entire plant. Every summer, I have blowdowns--plants laid flat by a wind gust. Most of these can just be immediately stood up again and perhaps propped with a stick. Those do fine. With a crop that varies between 100 and 200 plants, the loss is frustrating, but just part of the deal.

Bob
 

CT Tobaccoman

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I have been studying up on making my own dip and had a few questions. I haven't read every single thread, YET, probably because most of them I read there are lot of tangents that open up... not a bad thing at all. I'm still in the sponge phase of my tobacco education, soaking up all the knowledge I can. I'm sure this post could be linked to several thread subjects, but smokeless is my main interest. Below are the main questions I have been collecting during my studies.
Whatever one refers to for placing tobacco under your cheek as a means of using tobacco, dip/moist snuff/snus, in this post I'll call it dip. I was wondering about the different varieties of tobacco grown for making dip. I thought that I had read somewhere that US tobac uses some oriental to blend their dip, but I have also read @squeezyjohn
{ http://www.snuson.com/entry.php?332-Home-made-snus-an-instruction-manual } say that orientals aren't a good variety for homemade snus. Why wouldn't a sun cured Turkish be any good for making dip?
Another question about the varieties has to do with Rustica. Since it has a higher nicotine level than other tobaccos could LESS Alkali, for absorption, be needed in the dip recipe?
As far as the flavoring goes, I had a question about FLAVORED alcohols (like all of those flavored vodkas they have now), has anyone found that the "flavor" that was imparted to the alcohol (ex: Lemon, Orange, Apple ect. ) in turn imparted into the dip?
I'm new to pipe smoking and of course I was originally drawn to aromatics. I'm beginning to enjoy the qualities of non aromatics now, but I was wondering if aromatic pipe tobaccos (ex: Vanillas or Cherries flavors) where able to be turned into good dips using the "Snus" making dip recipes? Does in impart those same flavors into the dips taste? Does Cavendish make a good homemade dip?
I am going to try my hand at growing my own tobacco this year as well making dip. So far this year I have 4 different varieties growing (still small seedlings). I have started Yellow Twist Bud, Yellow Orinoco, Greenwood Dark and Little Crittenden seedlings. I just received some Black Mammoth and Rustica Tobacco and have plans to have them started early next week. My question here is about cutting seedlings. I haven't heard much about the reasoning for cutting seedlings before they are transplanted in to their final growing plots. I realise that it is needed in industrial setting to have all of the seedlings the same size, but I've seed small scale farmers doing it as well. Is this to help boost root development or is it to keep the seedlings from growing too "leggy"?
As I have already stated above there are a lot of topics here and I'm sure I could have broken this up to individual threads. Maybe I'll figure out how to LINK the different topics to different subjects so that I'll have more eyes on it and have my questions answered, but as the title goes... I'm a noob, so bare with me as I figure out this WONDERFUL website. Thank you EVERYONE for being here!!
In 100 years of Shade tobacco production in Connecticut seedlings have never been clipped, not even during the change from seedbeds to greenhouse unit trays. Being from that tradition, I don't clip them. I first heard about the practice about the time that float trays began to be used. Float trays were not largely adopted by cigar tobacco growers either. Float trays are always clipped. I see some evidence that clipping float tray seedlings gives stronger plants but severe clipping is detrimental. But I think clipping helps seedlings grow faster, with stronger stems. Just be conservative if you decide to clip until you learn the results. But clipping is not necessary, it is a relatively recent innovation
 
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