Whole Leaf Tobacco

Gravel in my dip

Jbg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2020
Messages
54
Points
33
Location
Arkansas
Well I sampled it today, been breathing/aging for 5 days. Been in pint jars in the fridge, took em out and picked the bigger chunks of sodium carbonate out and smooshed the little ones up, mixed in more, and more, and more wintergreen flavoring. End result is a soft spongy dip with little flavor of any kind and a surprising vitamin N buzz. I have dipped red seal lc wintergreen for better than 10 years and aint had buzz like that in longer than that. Well back to the drawing board.
 

plantdude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
777
Points
93
Location
Arkansas
The recipe jparnell listed on this forum that I tried also yielded a fairly spongy dip. Probably more error on my part since my measurements were not precise. I think next time I will cut back on the glycerin a bit to get rid of the sponginess a little and cut the propylene glycol in half. His suggested amount of winter green flavoring was pretty close, but a touch of molasses or dark corn syrup may give it a bit of depth. The sodium carbonate level (which contributes to the nicotine buzz level) seems a bit high, but mine has only aged a little over a week so far. Another week or two and it may be more forgiving. Overall it was a promising starting point and I would have to attribute any errors to me for my less than precise measuring and letting the temp run to high while cooking. Jparnell mentioned for more of the natural tobacco flavor a lower temp of 165 would probably be more suitable, mine went way past that for a few hours in the middle of the night.

I think once it ages for the full two weeks and I pack it tightly in some cans and let it sit another week or two it will improve a little more (assuming I don't use it all up in the mean time of course). Good luck @Jbg. If noting else you will be saving youself a chunk of change if you find a decent recipe.
 

Robncars

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2020
Messages
229
Points
63
Location
North Dakota
I'm curious about the role the bakers ammonia has also, I don't think I have heard about that being used before for chew.

@Robncars used rustica (higher nicotine content) with some of his batches and skipped the sodium carbonate step. I'm thinking I may try that out next year. No tobacco product is healthy, but I feel a little better adding less chemicals to it - less for me to screw up if nothing else.
If anyone knows of a good rustica variety worth trying I would be glad to hear about it (I'm betting there are going to be a few votes for the sacred cornplanter).
Here is my latest recipe.
15 cups (15oz) tobacco flour
2- 12oz apple juice
32 oz water
1/2 cup glycerin
1/2 cup salt (I use Himalayan pink salt)
2 tbsp cumin
Bring juice to a boil lower heat, but hold boil,, slowly mix in water glycerin salt and cumin mixing pretty well. Then add tobacco, turn off heat. Stir mix well. I then put it in a crackpot and heat it for 24hrs. Stirring occasionally This is tricky cause I don't have a temperature probe controlling it so I have to stay close to it. Even at a low setting it will burn. (Makes nasty chunks) I have had many people tell me that my dip smells great(wife is not impressed however).
Even without the rustica my dip seems to have quite a punch to it.

I have a pouch of Alaskan punk ash but I havent used it yet.
 

Jbg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2020
Messages
54
Points
33
Location
Arkansas
@plantdude, I have read on the how to grow tobacco forum before it went away, that stems are necessary for mouth feel. They add firmness to the pinch and without you get a spongy dip like you and me have experienced. I am seriously considering stripping all my tobacco drying the stems and larger veins and saving them exclusively for dip and using them lamina for chewing plugs and pipe tobacco.

@Robncars , doesn't that make a sweet dip? Is that 100% juice or concentrate?
 

Robncars

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2020
Messages
229
Points
63
Location
North Dakota
doesn't that make a sweet dip? Is that 100% juice or concentrate?
I use old orchard frozen juice concentrate. Still says 100% juiceThe salt and cumin make it a less sweet dip. I cant think what the opposite of sweet is or what im trying to call this dip. But it is not sweet. Its got a taste pretty close to copenhagen snuff. Its off by a bit though
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Jbg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2020
Messages
54
Points
33
Location
Arkansas
I use old orchard frozen juice concentrate. Still says 100% juiceThe salt and cumin make it a less sweet dip. I cant think what the opposite of sweet is or what im trying to call this dip. But it is not sweet. Its got a taste pretty close to copenhagen snuff. Its off by a bit though
Might have to give a shot. Savory might be the word you were looking for.
 

Robncars

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2020
Messages
229
Points
63
Location
North Dakota
Might have to give a shot. Savory might be the word you were looking for.
On a side note I dont use stems. (I use secondary veins cause I'm not that picky) I grind the leaves. Put em in the blender for a minute until all the big parts are chopped.
I watched a cigar making video from Cuba where the cigar maker called the stem poison. He lit the stem when asked about it and it was black burning. He said they use the stems to make pesticide. That contradicts what I've learned that the stems carry no nicotine. I do keep a bag of chopped stems in case I make the dip a little too wet.
On that note this latest batch has been a bit dry. Im going to add another 1/2 cup water to my next batch.
My dip does tend to be a bit spongy but it doesn't really bother me. It packs good. It seems to be more spongy with the larger tobacco flour. The smaller flour doesn't tend to get a spongy texture I've noticed.
And be careful with the salt. I added too much to 1 batch and it was burning my mouth. I made a whole new batch but added half the salt. Didn't do much so I made another batch with no salt and mixed all 3 for a really good mix.
 

Jbg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2020
Messages
54
Points
33
Location
Arkansas
From what I've read the stems have much less vitamin n than the lamina but has some, probably why the store bought stuff has alkali added to freebase the nicotine.
 

Robncars

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 25, 2020
Messages
229
Points
63
Location
North Dakota
From what I've read the stems have much less vitamin n than the lamina but has some, probably why the store bought stuff has alkali added to freebase the nicotine.
@deluxestogie corrected me, and you are correct, less vitamin N.
It doesn't really change my opinion though. Still going to compost the stems for the most part. I can grow as much as I want so I can make my dip more quality than commercial.
 

deluxestogie

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
May 25, 2011
Messages
18,301
Points
113
Location
near Blacksburg, VA
I should clarify, since some of the research papers on the nicotine-in-stems issue are unclear. Tobacco stalks are sometimes identified as "stems" in studies. [Boo!] When I refer to stems, I am speaking of the central vein of each leaf. It is this central vein that is milled and used for commercial snus and commercial chew, and is expanded, flattened and shredded for cigarette filler.

Quantitatively, the difference in nicotine concentration between central vein and leaf lamina is quite variable. (Even just within the lamina, the nicotine varies from one portion of a leaf to another.) But it general, for any given variety and priming level, the average nicotine of the central vein is lower than the average nicotine of its leaf lamina.

Some years ago, I saved the cured stems of every leaf, bagged by separate varieties. If finely minced, the stems (central veins) can be packed into a pipe and smoked. The burn is okay, though it is a little fussy to pack. Aroma and nicotine are timid. Stems can also serve as the center of a twist, so that coins cut from the finished twist have a "birdseye" in the center.

[CODA: I think I still have those bags of 8 year old stems somewhere, but I routinely discard stems.]

Bob
 

plantdude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
777
Points
93
Location
Arkansas
@Jbg I started a new batch going last night with the mid ribs left in and a light portion of small diameter stems (about toothpick thickness from the suckers and upper portions of the flower stalks) added in. I'll let you know how it goes. My last batch did seem to mellow and get better tasting after aging for about two weeks - either that or I got used to it. Doesn't seem too bad now.
I've tweaked the recipe slightly for the new batch, if it turns out ok I will post it.
 

plantdude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
777
Points
93
Location
Arkansas
@plantdude I think I remember from the other forum was guys were using something like 40-50% stems in their dip.
Sounds like that may be a little high for what I would want. My hand hurts just thinking about trying to chop up that much stem:) I wonder if they were trying to use up every bit of the plant. I would laugh about that more but my main goal was to find a use for leaves that were subpar for cigar quality so I guess I'm being a tobacco tightwad myself.
I did notice my last batch lost most of the spongy quality and became more substantial after it aged and dried down over two weeks. It's fairly similar in texture (and almost flavor) to grizzly long cut wintergreen now. I had mine sitting out in the cool garage in half pint jars covered with a coffee filter so it could breathe. I would give them a good shake once or twice a day to mix it up. After two weeks of intensive sampling I brought what I had left indoors and packed them into left over chewing tobacco cans. Sad to say It's almost gone now.
It's my understanding that most commercial chewing tobacco undergoes an aging process after its made. That seems to be an important step - now the tricky part is going to be making myself not use up all of my next batch before it has a chance to sit for at least two weeks...
 

plantdude

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 6, 2020
Messages
777
Points
93
Location
Arkansas
@plantdude how this batch turn out?
Pretty good, made a few test batches. Letting it sit for about 10 days or more does help quite a bit. Cooking temp also appears to make a big difference. I cooked one batch at the 165-175F range and it had a lot more of the natural leaf flavor to it. The other batch I cooked at 185-195F and it lost a lot of the natural tobacco flavor.
I used about 1/3 "dried green" leaf and the rest unkilned leaf from various varieties that had been aged for about 3-5 months. Most of this was crappier tobacco that has no place in a self respecting cigar. Despite the less than ideal leaf the flavoring and higher cooking temps provided for some pretty good chewing tobacco for leaves that I would have probably tossed otherwise. I found larger stems pieces undesirable so left those out of my last few batches (nothing bigger than midsized midribs were used).
I was shooting to make something pretty close to grizzly longcut wintergreen. I bought a can to compare it. The store bought stuff was finely shredded versus rough cut like mine. The store bought stuff also had a slightly sweeter flavor than mine that tasted like it may have been aspartame or an artificial sweetener. I was surprised how close my last batch (cooked at 185-195) came out to being like the store bought stuff though. If I make another batch I will probably added a little more sweetness to it.

The recipe is pretty much from the @jParnell thread https://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/jparnells-adventures-in-gourmet-artisanal-spittin-dip.9734/ so he gets the credit. I just changed the amounts slightly and added a few ingredients to suit my tastes.

Tobacco = 75 grams
Mix the following together:
Water=6.34 TBSP (heat the water to make the salt dissolve easier)
Salt=2.37 tsp
Molasses=2 tsp
1 TBSP whiskey
Mix into the tobacco and cook 185F for 24 hours

After cooking:
1 tsp sodium bicarbonate finely powdered and slowly added to the chewing tobacco while stirring.

Add together:
1 TBSP of whiskey
1 TBSP of water
Glycerin=1.5tsp
Propleyene glycol=0.75 tsp
Flavoring = 3.5 tsp (Lorann Wintergreen flavor used)
Mix ingredients and stir into chewing tobacco until everything is equally moist

Add chewing tobacco to mason jars (fill ½ to ¾ full) covered with a breathable top (like a coffee filter) and let sit in a cool place or refrigerator for at least 10 days. Shake the jars daily.
 

Jbg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2020
Messages
54
Points
33
Location
Arkansas
Are you using the super strength flavor? And outta curiosity what brand a whisky you usin?

I'm gonna try again soon this time I think I'm going drop the fire cured completely and make several 1/2 pint batches to try out different tobaccos and combos all cooked at the same temp. Ones I think might be good are a straight burley or a dark air, burley mix.
 

Jbg

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 1, 2020
Messages
54
Points
33
Location
Arkansas
Us smokeless tobacco company says there is saccharin in their flavored dips including my favorite, red seal lc wintergreen.
 
Top