"Stoving" in foil

[bluefishjim]

There seems to be many ways to stove tobacco, has anyone ever tried stoving in a foil packet? I would imagine that how wet the tobacco is when placed in packet then in oven would change the final product. If very wet would it come out like cavendish, dry closer to toasted?

 

[Leftynick]

Depend on what you want to achieve by toasting. To get the toasted flavor? Try toasting it dry. To improve the taste, remove harshness (force aging)? Try pliable but not wet. To make a cavendish? Try soaking wet. The temperature also play some role on the process. Cavendish and toast flavor might use higher temperature than to force age it.

 

[bluefishjim]

Ok so even toasting can be done wrapped in foil, that would seem to reduce the chance of it burning, and by using different levels of moisture the end result would change. From what I've been picking up from my reading, steam can change the leaf to something more sweet, so that would be around 212 degrees, what temp for toasting? Thanks for your response, this all new to me.

 

[Leftynick]

Well, I never done proper toasting before but I think the toasted flavor and sweetness comes from Maillard reaction so maybe you need to go above 260F. Going too high will kill the enzyme that caused the tobacco aged naturally so your tobacco might not further benefit from aging.

I dont know if steam sweeten the tobacco but I think my home made cavendish does smell sweeter than unsteamed tobacco.

 

[Leftynick]

Ouh yeah btw, you can do it wrapped in foil. People been stoving pipe tobacco inside their tin and claimed good results.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Toasting does not occur in the presence of water because if water is present, no matter how hot the oven is, the water is maximum 212°F. Toasting occurs to the tobacco after it dries out because it isn't until then that the tobacco can actually get above boiling point.

Maillard reaction happens only below 160°C 330°F and the only ways to speed it up while wet is to increase the boiling point by using a pressure cooker, or increase the pH. Foil will not work. It only prolongs it by preventing steam from escaping.

Steaming the tobacco takes a lot of time to do anything. 4hrs minimum at standard pressure, 1hr minimum at 15lbs. Therefore, the little bit of steaming that will happen wrapped in tinfoil is inconsequential unless if you have it at low temperature for a long time to prevent it from drying out. But now you can't call it toasting at all.

Changes in toasting relate to removing acid from sun and flue cured tobaccos by burning / carmelizing sugars and starches. So when you actually smoke it, you get less formic acid as a byproduct.

Changes from everything else related to removal of proteins and ammonia, thus removing alkaline.

You will see, in both cases, it has a neutralizing effect.

And it makes it taste toasty.

 

[bluefishjim]

Ok all that makes sense to me, so let me tell you what I did and what I ended up with. I placed a whole leaf of virginia and some Turkish in a foil pouch, placed in oven at 185 degrees F for one hr, raised temp to 220 F for another hr, opened the pouch sprayed with water and cooked for another hr. This morning I opened the bag I placed the tobacco in and got that dark fruit smell, the tobacco is brown, dark but still brown. As I mentioned this took me three hrs, what I am trying to do is cut this time done, if I place the tobacco in canning jars and pressure cook it at 15lbs pressure I can get that dark fruitiness in 1hr? Would the amount of wetness change any of the reactions that are happening? Can this be done with any type of tobacco?
Thanks for your info and explanation on this process.

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

, if I place the tobacco in canning jars and pressure cook it at 15lbs pressure I can get that dark fruitiness in 1hr? Would the amount of wetness change any of the reactions that are happening? Can this be done with any type of tobacco?
Thanks for your info and explanation on this process.

I process for 3 to 4 hours at 14.75lbs (due to altitude). It works best if there is as much water by weight as tobacco. Or you can see it as saturated. Just enough water so that it won't pour out the jar if you invert it.

 

[bluefishjim]

I process for 3 to 4 hours at 14.75lbs (due to altitude).

Ok I'm cooking some at 15lbs, gonna go for an hr, I'm close to sea level so hoping an hr gets me there. Thanks for your help and patience.
The leaf I'm trying are some light smoke cured, a mix of oreinatals, and some canadian flue cured.
Again thanks for your help

 

[bluefishjim]

Ok I'm cooking some at 15lbs, gonna go for an hr,

Well not only was 1hr not long enough, the virginia got pretty mushy, the oreintals darkened up some but didn't really change much in flavor. My next try well be in an oven in jars in low case condition, will go an hr at a time till I get what I'm looking for.

 

[Beren]

I process for 3 to 4 hours at 14.75lbs (due to altitude). It works best if there is as much water by weight as tobacco. Or you can see it as saturated. Just enough water so that it won't pour out the jar if you invert it.

Fun thread!

ChinaVoodoo, I am looking to do some experiments with a 'sous vide' water bath, with the tobacco in heat sealed plastic bags. I will be aiming towards getting a Cavindish effect. I understand that I need to be as close to boiling temps as possible. What I'm hoping to get some clarity from you about is the water content that you were describing above.

Since the leaves will not be in a flow of steam I will need to have the correct moisture content inside each sealed bag. The good thing with the sealed bags is that I can see into it and watch the progress. Since you have experience with moisture content in a jar, inside the pressure cooker, I imagine that is similar to what I need in my bags.

Can you give me a recommendation as to how I get the moisture content up to the same level as you without exceeding it. Meaning, I've read what you wrote about having as much water in it so that it doesn't run out of the jar when inverted, but I'm not sure exactly what that means. If you could be so kind as to describe this part of your process in detail and I would appreciate that very much. I will be using some whole leaf that I bought for the experiment. I have a variety of bright Virginia, Orange Virginia, honey Burley, dark fired Kentucky, so if you think any of these are more appropriate or less appropriate for this process then your insight would be appreciated.

The long-term plans with the Cavendish is for flaked pipe tobacco similar to Stonehaven, RDF, and Backwoods. Yes, I am aware that there is some degree of wishful thinking on my part as I try to reproduce these blends. ;-)

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

The tobacco should be close to saturated in my opinion. That is the point where there is no excess, AND can't hold any more. At this point, if you squeeze it, the liquid will come out. It is close to 50% water by weight, ie. 50g water to 50g tobacco.

 

[Beren]

With this level of saturation, should I just soak the tobacco for an hour in cool water or slowly saturated with repeated misting?

Yes I am a total newbie!

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

With this level of saturation, should I just soak the tobacco for an hour in cool water or slowly saturated with repeated misting?

Yes I am a total newbie!

It doesn't need to be that technical. Not to sound terse, but don't overthink it. An ounce of tobacco will take about an ounce of water.

Soaking would leech stuff out of the tobacco. Don't do that.

 

[Beren]

It doesn't need to be that technical. Not to sound terse, but don't overthink it. An ounce of tobacco will take about an ounce of water.

Soaking would leech stiff out of the tobacco. Don't do that.

Good to know not to soak it! Thanks for the help.

As to my over thinking, my mother has been telling me the same for the last 51-years and that has worked. ;-)