If you wanted to gain hybrid vigor in an heirloom plant could you cross 2 of the same type together? Ie, ytb to another different ytb plant or would this be entirely pointless? Something I was thinking on the drive home...
Question on crossing re : hybrid vigor
- Thread starter SmokesAhoy
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Within a group of plants from a single batch of seed, we can often identify plants that differ in some respects--some taller; some with wider or darker leaves; some with a different shade of pink in the blossoms. These differences represent variability in the genome within that variety. Crossing two such variants might introduce some element of hybrid vigor. I would guess that the best chance of seeing any hybrid vigor within the same variety would rest in locating a wholly different seed source for that same variety. For example, two different ARS-GRIN accessions of the same named variety, or strains grown for many years in two different regions of the world.
Another approach to inducing hybrid vigor (which in any case only lasts for a few generations) is to out-cross with a different but similar variety, then back-cross the resulting seed for several generations to the originally desired variety. This is a tedious process that may or may not be worth the effort.
I think that a worthwhile candidate would be a desirable variety that always seems to produce feeble plants. An example that comes to mind is the Brazil Bahía that I grew last year. The leaf kilned to a flavorful, medium-dark wrapper. But the stalks of my Bahía were "floppy," having difficulty keeping itself upright, and requiring extra attention to support. Perhaps an out-cross to FL Sumatra, then several generations of back-cross to Bahía might eliminate that problem.
Moreover, with the wide availability of so many distinct varieties, it would seem that simply identifying a sturdier exemplar of what you want might be an easier approach. Careful selection of plants from which to save seed (rather than bagging the first to bud) can also go a long way toward ending up with what you want.
Bob
Another approach to inducing hybrid vigor (which in any case only lasts for a few generations) is to out-cross with a different but similar variety, then back-cross the resulting seed for several generations to the originally desired variety. This is a tedious process that may or may not be worth the effort.
I think that a worthwhile candidate would be a desirable variety that always seems to produce feeble plants. An example that comes to mind is the Brazil Bahía that I grew last year. The leaf kilned to a flavorful, medium-dark wrapper. But the stalks of my Bahía were "floppy," having difficulty keeping itself upright, and requiring extra attention to support. Perhaps an out-cross to FL Sumatra, then several generations of back-cross to Bahía might eliminate that problem.
Moreover, with the wide availability of so many distinct varieties, it would seem that simply identifying a sturdier exemplar of what you want might be an easier approach. Careful selection of plants from which to save seed (rather than bagging the first to bud) can also go a long way toward ending up with what you want.
Bob
Randy
Well-Known Member
Bob question? Is there some types have kinda stronger trait when attempting to breed I guess?? like burley x maryland just by looking at the burley you think it would domanate the maryland..but thats why ask the question..
Randy
Randy
I don't know. Creating a new strain of tobacco is a decade long endeavor.
Bob
Bob
Yeah after researching into delgold that pipedream is popped. The best I can hope for is to be a responsible steward to my strains and bag them, and if I cross some of them enjoy the f1 for what it is and realize I will likely never see that again once the seed is gone.
skychaser
Well-Known Member
Bob, I don't think that what you described is actually an example of hybrid vigor, but more of a method of improving or stabilizing a strain. Or perhaps I would be more correct to say that it is not the classical definition of hybrid vigor.
To achieve the full hybrid vigor effect, be it in plants or animals, you need to have two different strains that are inbred purebreds. And if my memory serves me correctly, each must be about 1/3 inbred. When 2 such plants or animals are crossed, the resulting offspring will be a mix each parents characteristics having some variations as you expect siblings to have. But the resulting offspring will grow faster and 25% larger than either parent. That is true hybrid vigor. If bred back together, this F1 generation will not result in an F2 generation with the same growth rate or size. All the "vigor" is lost in a couple generations.
This is why purebred / inbred stocks of animals and plants are maintained. One example is in Beef cattle. Purebred Herefords and raised to cross with Purebred Angus. The result is a steer that grows 25% larger than either the Hereford or Angus would in the same time period. The most profound hybrid vigor effect I have ever seen is in meat chickens. Inbred Cornish chickens are crossed with Inbred White Plymouth Rocks and the result is a chicken that goes from being an egg to a 5 lb bucket of KFC in 6 1/2 weeks. Neither parent comes close to that growth rate.
Many of us tend to have a negative reaction when we hear the word hybrid, mostly thanks to the fine folk at Monsanto who have brought us such things like BS corn, err, I mean BT corn. But hybrids are very useful. I grew a hybrid Virginia Gold produced by Profogen in Brazil last year that totally kicked the ass of any other Virginian I have ever grown. This stuff produced huge leaves that cured like a Burley. When I grow a VG again just for my own smoke, it will defiantly be one of their hybrids. They have a new variety I am itching to try and am trying to lay my hands on a small quantity of seed through one of their distributors in the UK.
If you took a very inbred strain of Maryland and crossed it with a very inbred strain of Burley, the offspring would show the effect of hybrid vigor and be much larger than either parent. You may find this a very desirable thing but it doesn't guarantee you would like the taste or that would cure well, etc. You could end up with a very vigorously growing plant with other characteristics you didn't like.
On the other hand you just might come up with a cross that produced some very desirable traits other than the growth rate and size. You could breed these to create an F2 generation, select for those specific traits again and breed an F3 generation. Repeat this until you have generation 5 or 6 or more to stabilize it, and you have created a new strain. But all the true hybrid vigor effect would have been long lost.
To achieve the full hybrid vigor effect, be it in plants or animals, you need to have two different strains that are inbred purebreds. And if my memory serves me correctly, each must be about 1/3 inbred. When 2 such plants or animals are crossed, the resulting offspring will be a mix each parents characteristics having some variations as you expect siblings to have. But the resulting offspring will grow faster and 25% larger than either parent. That is true hybrid vigor. If bred back together, this F1 generation will not result in an F2 generation with the same growth rate or size. All the "vigor" is lost in a couple generations.
This is why purebred / inbred stocks of animals and plants are maintained. One example is in Beef cattle. Purebred Herefords and raised to cross with Purebred Angus. The result is a steer that grows 25% larger than either the Hereford or Angus would in the same time period. The most profound hybrid vigor effect I have ever seen is in meat chickens. Inbred Cornish chickens are crossed with Inbred White Plymouth Rocks and the result is a chicken that goes from being an egg to a 5 lb bucket of KFC in 6 1/2 weeks. Neither parent comes close to that growth rate.
Many of us tend to have a negative reaction when we hear the word hybrid, mostly thanks to the fine folk at Monsanto who have brought us such things like BS corn, err, I mean BT corn. But hybrids are very useful. I grew a hybrid Virginia Gold produced by Profogen in Brazil last year that totally kicked the ass of any other Virginian I have ever grown. This stuff produced huge leaves that cured like a Burley. When I grow a VG again just for my own smoke, it will defiantly be one of their hybrids. They have a new variety I am itching to try and am trying to lay my hands on a small quantity of seed through one of their distributors in the UK.
If you took a very inbred strain of Maryland and crossed it with a very inbred strain of Burley, the offspring would show the effect of hybrid vigor and be much larger than either parent. You may find this a very desirable thing but it doesn't guarantee you would like the taste or that would cure well, etc. You could end up with a very vigorously growing plant with other characteristics you didn't like.
On the other hand you just might come up with a cross that produced some very desirable traits other than the growth rate and size. You could breed these to create an F2 generation, select for those specific traits again and breed an F3 generation. Repeat this until you have generation 5 or 6 or more to stabilize it, and you have created a new strain. But all the true hybrid vigor effect would have been long lost.
Sky,
I agree. What is usually referred to as hybrid vigor fits your definition perfectly.
I guess it comes down to the fuzzy definition of the expectations and bounds of "hybrid vigor," in the absence of specific genetic characterization. "Bigger" has to be attributable to a gene or gene combination. If it is closely associated (linked) with other advantageous traits, then it may persist (be selected for) on its own. If linked to one or more disadvantageous traits, then one might expect it to spontaneously diminish in prevalence with successive generations.
In poultry, for example, better for the table is not necessarily advantageous to breeding or spontaneous perpetuation. Truly big chicken, duck and turkey varieties often can't even manage to mate naturally.
Bob
I agree. What is usually referred to as hybrid vigor fits your definition perfectly.
I guess it comes down to the fuzzy definition of the expectations and bounds of "hybrid vigor," in the absence of specific genetic characterization. "Bigger" has to be attributable to a gene or gene combination. If it is closely associated (linked) with other advantageous traits, then it may persist (be selected for) on its own. If linked to one or more disadvantageous traits, then one might expect it to spontaneously diminish in prevalence with successive generations.
In poultry, for example, better for the table is not necessarily advantageous to breeding or spontaneous perpetuation. Truly big chicken, duck and turkey varieties often can't even manage to mate naturally.
Bob
Boboro
Well-Known Member
Big people sometimes have that problem.
DonH
Well-Known Member
That cracked me up!
Gmac
Well-Known Member
I tried that with Treeing Walker dogs for 20 years. I kept line breeding my particular family of dogs for those 20 years. I mean paying huge stud fees. They all turned out smaller & crazy as a bunch of lunatics. I either shot or gave them all away(with no registration) If I had it to do over I would have outcrossed to a different strain. (Hind Sight) Well, at least I got one once in a lifetime specimen.
Gmac
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chillardbee
Well-Known Member
One thing about the Delgold that made it harder to achieve was he use of rustica. Also it was bred to be a homogynized strian on its own that would breed true to it's own. I wouldn't consider Delgold to be a hybrid in the sense of 2 varieties being crossed for that f1 which don't breed true.
ArizonaDave
Well-Known Member
Bob, you had a thread a while back with pictures and graphs on how to crossing two blends. I might add, it was a fantastic thread!
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