larryccf
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2016
- Messages
- 196
- Points
- 43
First, for the record, i'm still climbing the learning curve in whole leaf tobacco, so take anything / everything stated below with a grain of salt.
I went looking for a shredder, after researching folks experiences on the web, it was down to the Powermatic S and one of the manual shredders on tobaccoandmachines.com . I ended up buying the G120 from MC Swiat http://www.tobaccoandmachines.com/index.php?s=produkt&id=51
Main reasons were the 120mm length of the rollers combined with the 32mm diameter of the rollers. Most of the small hand crank (but power adaptable) shredders offered use 21 or 22mm diameter rollers, and i'd noticed the "el cheapo" (no offense to WLT meant, don actually said that's what they called it there at WLT), when it shredded would throw quite a few strands that were 1/8" to almost 1/4" in width, and ranging from 3/4" to 2" in length. I suspected that was occurring when the leaf going thru the rollers would fold over 3 & 4 times, and that thickness was causing the rollers to deflect outward from each other, whether from bowing outward or shifting in the axis openings in the sideplates, would deflect enough to let a small section pass thru without being shredded. So the 32mm diameter rollers with the rigid bearing mount i hoped would correct that issue. It did - i've shredded about 3 lbs now, and it's performance has been flawless, i haven't seen one strand like described above with el cheapo. Strand cut width is .8mm btw.
The vendor, Mc Swiat (tobaccoandmachines.com), i'll give high marks to in terms of integrity, communications and general svc attitude - he demonstrated pretty decent honesty on two occasions. The second one was when i accidentally sent a 2nd payment (via PayPal) by mistake. When i initially inquired about his RS120 machine, he emailed back that he recommended the G120, with comments describing his "semi-professional" customers preferring it over all his other offerings (more on "semi-professional" customers later). He indicated he'd email two separate invoices via paypal, one for the RS120 and one for the G120, so i could pay for the one i decided on. Obviously, i went with the G120 and when i paid, i noticed the PayPal system indicated funds would not be released to the seller for 45 days. When the transaction was over, the seller had acted or performed decently enough that i thought i'd go into paypal to authorize an earlier release of his funds. I accidentally (speed reading) clikked on the "send pmt" for the other invoice. The instant i did, i realized i'd screwed up, contacted paypal, and being the logical lovely payment organization they are (sarcasm), they send i nor they could retract the payment, that the seller would have to "refund" it. He did so promptly, within 4 hours of my email to him. BTW, when i asked Pawel (the owner) if he would deduct the VAT for an export sale, he had no issue. The price reduction almost covered the UPS shipping costs, which were quoted as 45 euros - this is a heavy machine for it's size, weight is 5 kg or nearly 11 pounds.
The positives - the unit does employ sealed bearings, and actually uses Japanese manufactured shielded bearings (NSK). There's a pretty serious expense difference between japanese & chinese manufactured bearings, with the Jap bearings generally running nearly twice the cost of chinese - but the jap bearings are still the preferred choice - i'm in manufacturing, and from time to time have to source bearings for different projects.
The unit's operation is very very smooth, and between it's weight (11 lbs) and that long handle, you almost don't need to mount it to the table. Key word there is "almost".
The hopper is pretty useful size, not too large or tall, and surprisingly (to me anyway) the hopper is fabricated from the same 5mm SS as the sideplates.
The G120 - first the obvious shortcoming, isn't provided with any means to attach it to a table or counter top, but i wasn't worried about that, i have plenty of aluminum angle which would be easy enough to cut & drill. The RS120 does come with small plastic blocks to anchor it but i doubt their longevity.
I can't state this is a shortcoming, as it has an advantage as well, but the handle is long, long enough that the machine has to be mounted close to the edge of the stand otherwise the handle won't clear the table top. The advantage is it gives the leverage to make cranking a breeze, no straining whatsoever. Another option would be to mount the G120 on a couple of pcs of 3/4" plywood, as that should raise it enough. It makes me wonder what the cranking action is like on the RS120 as it has a shorter handle that will clear the table.
The first criticism - the sideplates are shear cut, in a sheet brake - think like a heavy heavy duty paper cutter, with the blade much thicker, and cutting by sheer force. Perfect for this application, but it leaves a sharp rough edge.
When i first opened the package and put the unit on my desk, just moving it around a bit, scratched the hell out of my desk. It wouldn't have taken much (and should have been) to have dressed the edges - it didn't take me 5 minutes with a file to clean the edges but it should not have shipped like that.
2nd criticism - because the elec motor i have to motorize this unit rotates counter clockwise, and this unit is meant or assembled for clockwise operation, i had to swap the rollers so the one with the 8mm allen head was in the rear position, so it would operate counter-clockwise. To remove you have to remove the bolts or threaded rods running from one sideplate to the other, and then pull the rollers out. The fit thru the bearings was nearly what i'd call an interference fit, ie real tight almost requiring a press. I used a 4 oz ball-pein hammer (i'd rather tap a bunch of times with light taps than a few with a heavy hammer. Well, it took 30-40 taps with the 4 oz hammer, and when it was fully out, i noticed the 8mm socket wouldn't mount onto the 8mm allen head driveshaft or stub axle - the metal was soft enough to mallet or mushroom out. That's an indication the rollers were not heat treated (heat treatment is used to harden the metal, and depending on the alloy you can dial in the hardening desired, depending on the application. I asked the seller if he could identify the specific SS alloy as i wanted to have the rollers heat treated and he responded that if heat treated the rollers would not "go together" again. Basically the heat treat would warp the rollers. We've had a couple of alloys that had a similiar tendency to warp during heat treat, but the solution was to source the metal already hardened or to send it out for heat treat first, then machine it. The problem is it adds serious cost because machining hardened metal is slower and more costly than soft metal. I would think hardening would be necessary for the cutting bands to hold their edge but I don't know that these rollers need heat treatment for certain - i remember talking to the tech at zico about the powermatic S, and he indicated the "star shaped" cutters didn't have sharp edges. He mentioned they didn't replace them that often but occasionally there was a problem when the machine suffered a jam. So it's entirely possible these rollers will be fine as are. Pawel, the seller, said his "semi-professional" customers go thru rollers once or twice a year. I surmised from a few of his emails, there's a cottage industry of folks making "tax free" cigarettes that i suppose they sell in flea markets, to friends or whoever. As they'd be shredding serious amounts of tobacco, i suspect i'll see a decent life from this machine.
3rd criticism - while on the one side of the unit, it was only a matter of getting the axle stubs out of the bearings, on the other side you've got a gear mounted on each axle stub that has to come off before you can pull (or tap) the roller out. The gears are held on by small circlips which wasn't an issue. But the axle stubs and gears had a keyway - here's the criticism. Rather than use off the shelf hardened woodruff keys, they apparently went with a custom rectangular key that was simply soft metal and dimensioned to a rod they either machine or source locally. And the apparent installation is to insert a length of that rod into the slot formed by the channel cut into the shaft and the opening on the gear by tapping it in, and then simply bending it up/down a number of times until it broke off. The only way to bend it when it's in that keyway is up/down, and it breaks on the top surface even with the surface of the gear. The problem is it made getting the gears off a little difficult - luckily i had a gear puller perfect for the task, but the effort or strain on the gear puller was at it's limit. Woodruff keys are not expensive - i mike'd the slots and went online and couldn't find a woodruff key sized propery for the slots so i re-used the rod. The rods do work though, but if the typical owner trying to replace his rollers after they've worn, will risk messing things up prying with a screwdriver or trying to drive them out with a hammer - this wanted more force than the 4 oz hammer could deliver.
Would i buy it again - yeah. I believe it will give me a serious life based on what i learned from zico (powermatic S) and Pawel's indications.
I don't know the G120 was worth the price, given there are two 100mm shredders employing sealed bearings that are priced at approximate 100 euros. With reduction in price with VAT backed out, shipped i'd expect the delivered in hand price would be in the $110-$115 range but neither of those use 32mm diameter rollers.
Later on today, when i'm in the shop i'll try to take a couple pictures of the gears" keyways.
I'll also post a few shots of the motorizing project - don't expect anything too professional looking, this first build is in wood, and what i call an evaluation build, too see what in the layout i want to change before fabricating in metal.
I went looking for a shredder, after researching folks experiences on the web, it was down to the Powermatic S and one of the manual shredders on tobaccoandmachines.com . I ended up buying the G120 from MC Swiat http://www.tobaccoandmachines.com/index.php?s=produkt&id=51
Main reasons were the 120mm length of the rollers combined with the 32mm diameter of the rollers. Most of the small hand crank (but power adaptable) shredders offered use 21 or 22mm diameter rollers, and i'd noticed the "el cheapo" (no offense to WLT meant, don actually said that's what they called it there at WLT), when it shredded would throw quite a few strands that were 1/8" to almost 1/4" in width, and ranging from 3/4" to 2" in length. I suspected that was occurring when the leaf going thru the rollers would fold over 3 & 4 times, and that thickness was causing the rollers to deflect outward from each other, whether from bowing outward or shifting in the axis openings in the sideplates, would deflect enough to let a small section pass thru without being shredded. So the 32mm diameter rollers with the rigid bearing mount i hoped would correct that issue. It did - i've shredded about 3 lbs now, and it's performance has been flawless, i haven't seen one strand like described above with el cheapo. Strand cut width is .8mm btw.
The vendor, Mc Swiat (tobaccoandmachines.com), i'll give high marks to in terms of integrity, communications and general svc attitude - he demonstrated pretty decent honesty on two occasions. The second one was when i accidentally sent a 2nd payment (via PayPal) by mistake. When i initially inquired about his RS120 machine, he emailed back that he recommended the G120, with comments describing his "semi-professional" customers preferring it over all his other offerings (more on "semi-professional" customers later). He indicated he'd email two separate invoices via paypal, one for the RS120 and one for the G120, so i could pay for the one i decided on. Obviously, i went with the G120 and when i paid, i noticed the PayPal system indicated funds would not be released to the seller for 45 days. When the transaction was over, the seller had acted or performed decently enough that i thought i'd go into paypal to authorize an earlier release of his funds. I accidentally (speed reading) clikked on the "send pmt" for the other invoice. The instant i did, i realized i'd screwed up, contacted paypal, and being the logical lovely payment organization they are (sarcasm), they send i nor they could retract the payment, that the seller would have to "refund" it. He did so promptly, within 4 hours of my email to him. BTW, when i asked Pawel (the owner) if he would deduct the VAT for an export sale, he had no issue. The price reduction almost covered the UPS shipping costs, which were quoted as 45 euros - this is a heavy machine for it's size, weight is 5 kg or nearly 11 pounds.
The positives - the unit does employ sealed bearings, and actually uses Japanese manufactured shielded bearings (NSK). There's a pretty serious expense difference between japanese & chinese manufactured bearings, with the Jap bearings generally running nearly twice the cost of chinese - but the jap bearings are still the preferred choice - i'm in manufacturing, and from time to time have to source bearings for different projects.
The unit's operation is very very smooth, and between it's weight (11 lbs) and that long handle, you almost don't need to mount it to the table. Key word there is "almost".
The hopper is pretty useful size, not too large or tall, and surprisingly (to me anyway) the hopper is fabricated from the same 5mm SS as the sideplates.
The G120 - first the obvious shortcoming, isn't provided with any means to attach it to a table or counter top, but i wasn't worried about that, i have plenty of aluminum angle which would be easy enough to cut & drill. The RS120 does come with small plastic blocks to anchor it but i doubt their longevity.
I can't state this is a shortcoming, as it has an advantage as well, but the handle is long, long enough that the machine has to be mounted close to the edge of the stand otherwise the handle won't clear the table top. The advantage is it gives the leverage to make cranking a breeze, no straining whatsoever. Another option would be to mount the G120 on a couple of pcs of 3/4" plywood, as that should raise it enough. It makes me wonder what the cranking action is like on the RS120 as it has a shorter handle that will clear the table.
The first criticism - the sideplates are shear cut, in a sheet brake - think like a heavy heavy duty paper cutter, with the blade much thicker, and cutting by sheer force. Perfect for this application, but it leaves a sharp rough edge.
When i first opened the package and put the unit on my desk, just moving it around a bit, scratched the hell out of my desk. It wouldn't have taken much (and should have been) to have dressed the edges - it didn't take me 5 minutes with a file to clean the edges but it should not have shipped like that.
2nd criticism - because the elec motor i have to motorize this unit rotates counter clockwise, and this unit is meant or assembled for clockwise operation, i had to swap the rollers so the one with the 8mm allen head was in the rear position, so it would operate counter-clockwise. To remove you have to remove the bolts or threaded rods running from one sideplate to the other, and then pull the rollers out. The fit thru the bearings was nearly what i'd call an interference fit, ie real tight almost requiring a press. I used a 4 oz ball-pein hammer (i'd rather tap a bunch of times with light taps than a few with a heavy hammer. Well, it took 30-40 taps with the 4 oz hammer, and when it was fully out, i noticed the 8mm socket wouldn't mount onto the 8mm allen head driveshaft or stub axle - the metal was soft enough to mallet or mushroom out. That's an indication the rollers were not heat treated (heat treatment is used to harden the metal, and depending on the alloy you can dial in the hardening desired, depending on the application. I asked the seller if he could identify the specific SS alloy as i wanted to have the rollers heat treated and he responded that if heat treated the rollers would not "go together" again. Basically the heat treat would warp the rollers. We've had a couple of alloys that had a similiar tendency to warp during heat treat, but the solution was to source the metal already hardened or to send it out for heat treat first, then machine it. The problem is it adds serious cost because machining hardened metal is slower and more costly than soft metal. I would think hardening would be necessary for the cutting bands to hold their edge but I don't know that these rollers need heat treatment for certain - i remember talking to the tech at zico about the powermatic S, and he indicated the "star shaped" cutters didn't have sharp edges. He mentioned they didn't replace them that often but occasionally there was a problem when the machine suffered a jam. So it's entirely possible these rollers will be fine as are. Pawel, the seller, said his "semi-professional" customers go thru rollers once or twice a year. I surmised from a few of his emails, there's a cottage industry of folks making "tax free" cigarettes that i suppose they sell in flea markets, to friends or whoever. As they'd be shredding serious amounts of tobacco, i suspect i'll see a decent life from this machine.
3rd criticism - while on the one side of the unit, it was only a matter of getting the axle stubs out of the bearings, on the other side you've got a gear mounted on each axle stub that has to come off before you can pull (or tap) the roller out. The gears are held on by small circlips which wasn't an issue. But the axle stubs and gears had a keyway - here's the criticism. Rather than use off the shelf hardened woodruff keys, they apparently went with a custom rectangular key that was simply soft metal and dimensioned to a rod they either machine or source locally. And the apparent installation is to insert a length of that rod into the slot formed by the channel cut into the shaft and the opening on the gear by tapping it in, and then simply bending it up/down a number of times until it broke off. The only way to bend it when it's in that keyway is up/down, and it breaks on the top surface even with the surface of the gear. The problem is it made getting the gears off a little difficult - luckily i had a gear puller perfect for the task, but the effort or strain on the gear puller was at it's limit. Woodruff keys are not expensive - i mike'd the slots and went online and couldn't find a woodruff key sized propery for the slots so i re-used the rod. The rods do work though, but if the typical owner trying to replace his rollers after they've worn, will risk messing things up prying with a screwdriver or trying to drive them out with a hammer - this wanted more force than the 4 oz hammer could deliver.
Would i buy it again - yeah. I believe it will give me a serious life based on what i learned from zico (powermatic S) and Pawel's indications.
I don't know the G120 was worth the price, given there are two 100mm shredders employing sealed bearings that are priced at approximate 100 euros. With reduction in price with VAT backed out, shipped i'd expect the delivered in hand price would be in the $110-$115 range but neither of those use 32mm diameter rollers.
Later on today, when i'm in the shop i'll try to take a couple pictures of the gears" keyways.
I'll also post a few shots of the motorizing project - don't expect anything too professional looking, this first build is in wood, and what i call an evaluation build, too see what in the layout i want to change before fabricating in metal.