And now for something completely different....

[Bex]

I will try hanging it in the house - after my last post, I went outside to see what was going on. The leaf is crispy - the temp was at 125F, the RH still at 50%, and the leaf is not only dry as a bone - but mostly a light brown, with some of it still pale green as well. And the midrib is green. I've bumped the temp up to 135F for the night, and plan to end the run tomorrow morning, considering it a failure. Maybe I can salvage some of this as filler....

 

[Bex]

Just another rambling thought here - thinking (hoping) that a good portion of my difficulty is the maturity of the leaf. During my first run, where I was able to get quite a bit of brightleaf, I was very vigilant about checking each leaf that I pulled, looking for yellowing at the tip or perimeter of the leaf. Perhaps I got a bit cavalier with my second 'harvest' - on the wave of the semi-success of the first one, I was not nearly as careful, but just harvested whatever would easily snap off, on the bottom 2 tiers of leaves. Most of them were pale, but did not really exhibit any of that yellowing. So perhaps most of my leaf is really not ready to be harvested at all, and I should try waiting a bit longer.
That being said - and bearing in mind that the following was with my 'mystery' plants of the past few years - I had one tobacco plant growing on my windowsill for about 3 years. It was small, but continued to grow, and it flowered for 3 years in a row. The leaves never turned yellow - some of them just became brown, dropped off, and then in a short while, new leaves began to sprout in the same place. It would have continued to live probably, except that I needed the room, and it wasn't all that lush and attractive. I wonder if it's possible that, in my location, the plants just never 'ripen' at all, but are just perennial. Perish the thought, of course......

 

[deluxestogie]

If your date of last frost is earlier than the date you have been transplanting to the tunnel, then putting them in the ground earlier may be all that's required.

Bob

 

[Brown Thumb]

Yellowing is usually the easy part.
I think your leaf is probably still not ready to be harvested.
I would do what others have mention and yellow it up outside the chamber. I have done it and it works.
0ne batch curing the other yellowing outside the chamber.
I have had leftover leaf harvested at the same yellow up at the same as the leaf inside the chamber.

 

[Bex]

Hmmm.....I will try to put my plants out earlier next year - part of my thoughts is whether or not this tunnel holds up. Of course, I was worried about this during the past spring, but it's still standing. The plastic is ripped in places, but it doesn't seem to make a difference. However, while some of my plants are now quite high, the majority of them are only about 3 or 4 feet tall. Even though the Oriental has been out since the beginning of June, most have disappeared and the few that still remain only started to grow in September...??? It's strange.

And I think that I will try yellowing some outside the chamber. I would tend to agree that the last batch that I picked was not ready for curing. The first batch (lower down, and yellowing at the tips on the plant) yellowed much more easily.

And now on to my latest f*ck up: Last night, I decided to call this run a failure, and end it. At this time, I had some patchy yellow on the leaf, some brown leaf, and quite a bit of parts of leaves and midribs that were still bright green - even after 72 hours of yellowing and another 24 of wilting. I figured I would just shut the vent and dry all of it. At the time, the RH was 52%, the leaf was pretty dry (although not crispy) and the temp still at wilting at about 118F. I bumped the temp up to 135F, shut the vent and left it for the night. This morning, I went out to the freezer and found that the RH had hiked itself back up to 84%. The leaf is now yellow and brown (no brightleaf, though). Did I cook this? I don't know, but this experience seems to have identified part of my problem - getting the leaf to give up its moisture (breaking of the cell walls??) during the schedule. I don't know what on earth this run will be like, but I've somewhat continued - opening the vent again, hiking the temp up to stem drying, and leaving it there for the day. I'll see what it's like when I come home later.

This brings me back to the dangerous idea of sapping.....or leaf maturity, etc. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that in order to yellow, the cell walls need to rupture so that the leaf gives up its moisture and will then eventually die through the rest of the process. I suppose that leaf ripeness and maturity makes the rupture somewhat easier and that perhaps the cell walls are stronger and less prone to rupture when the leaf is immature? Is this the science of this? And if this is the case, is there some way to 'force' this to happen, other than waiting for the leaf to come to that stage on its own? I guess maybe this was the idea of this 'sapping' technique, to force this to occur? This seems to make some sense to me - and seems to explain the problems that I've been having, if my idea of the science is correct.....????

 

[deluxestogie]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I imagine that in order to yellow, the cell walls need to rupture so that the leaf gives up its moisture and will then eventually die through the rest of the process.

Incorrect. The cell walls need to remain intact, so that the cells stay alive during yellowing.

Bob

 

[Bex]

So then what was this idea (not that I'll try it purposefully) about sapping? They seem to be talking about yellowing happening when the sap comes to the surface of the leaf. I'm not sure that I understand what that means (or how to get this to happen). I know that with gardening, you can 'force' bulbs, or even 'force' flowering/maturity through 'competition'. Is there no way to force these leaves to 'mature' or ripen once they are harvested so that yellowing is easier? If I follow the suggestion about hanging a batch of leaf outside the chamber while another is being flue cured, will that hanging for those few days still allow the leaf to live and start to yellow? Next year I will try to set my plants out earlier - maybe at the beginning of May or end of April, which will add another month to the growing season if they're not blown away. I suppose I need to re-read what I read last year - my plants have been out now almost 5 months though - I suppose that in better weather conditions this might normally have been enough time for them to mature....

 

[Bex]

Ever see 'A Funny Thing Happened on the Way to the Forum'?? It begins with a song with the lyrics...'something for everyone'. For some reason, this is the song that popped into my head when I ended my run this afternoon. A mixed bag...something for everyone. And I don't have a clue as to why I got some of the results that I did. On Monday evening, 24 hours into wilting, my container was at 52% (as per the schedule), the temp was at 120F, but my leaf was bone dry, mostly green and ruined. I assumed that this was a failure. I shut the vent, bumped the temp up to 135F, and planned to end all yesterday morning. When I looked yesterday morning, the RH was mysteriously back up to 84%, and the leaf had started to change color....some yellow, some brown. I decided to keep going - opened the vent, hiked the temp up to about 140F. By last night the RH had dropped to 28% - I hiked the temp up to 155F. This morning the RH remained at 28% (and perhaps that is as low as I can get it??) - I hiked the temp up to 165F and left it there for a few hours, then shut all down, put water into the crock pot and waited until I was able to handle the leaf. A strange result awaited me
A combination of some yellow:


some brown.....


and some green:



And a lot of confusion. This run should have been totally ruined - the leaf on Monday was pretty much dried a fairly 'bright' green, although the midribs were not completely dried yet. I think that this is my Lazarus run.....and it came out a lot better than I anticipated. But it provides more questions than answers....I've read that one should not go beyond 120F until 'yellowing is complete'. Yet my leaf actually yellowed at 135F.

Whatever the mystery, I was pleasantly surprised that about 80% of the leaf seems to have turned out not too badly. And in this mystery run, I achieved more yellow leaf than I was ever able to get last year......

 

[Jitterbugdude]

Did you grow the same leaf this year as last? Virginia Brightleaf cures to a very bright yellow for me but Hickory Pryor cures to a dull yellow-brownish color.

 

[Bex]

No, this year I am using new seeds that actually have some 'provenance' to them. Last year the stuff that I was growing was virginia and burley from the internet. I had purchased seeds about 4 years prior to that, and had been getting my own seed from the plants. I didn't know what I was doing, was growing all together in a little greenhouse, and hadn't ever heard of flue curing, etc. Of the 100+ plants that I had last year (after finding this forum) I was able to achieve three yellow leaves out of the entire batch that I did. I still have those three leaves in a little bag - they were too beautiful to do anything with. The rest of the leaves either turned tan/brown, which I shredded, or greenish (like Candela wrapper??).

Stubbornly, I have started another run - this time with fewer leaves (about 80) as I was a bit more vigilant about the leaf that I picked. I am getting some leaf that is starting to yellow at the tips - I imagine if I could hang on a bit longer, this would improve and the leaf would be easier to cure. I don't know how much time I have left, so I left all the green leaf in the tunnel, but picked those that were just starting to slightly yellow.....

 

[deluxestogie]

Congratulations on a fairly decent run.

I believe that your confusion arises from peeking when you shouldn't have. Get the leaf to mostly yellow, then begin wilting with no more peeking. Erect some yellow police investigation tape around the kiln. Every time you peek after that, it hashes up the chamber conditions, and encourages you to make changes. If your focus is on producing the best flue-cured stems in all of Ireland, the leaf will suffer.

Once the leaf is mostly yellow, the entire process is just stepping the temp up and the venting down. Twelve hours at stem kill (165 degrees F) produces rock-hard, brittle stems than remain unchanged forever. So I agree with your very brief stay at that temp, since you utilize the stems. But I would suggest making a decision of priority: nice leaf or nice stem.

Bob

 

[Bex]

Hmmm.....I imagine that one can have nice stem, but horrid, unsmokeable leaf, no? So I guess I opt for nice leaf. But I'm still confused - even with my peeking - at this run. I'm allowed to peek during yellowing...and found that during this run, yellowing wasn't really happening - at least not as easily as during the first run. In my first run, I was still sitting in yellowing at 96 hours, waiting, and was advised to move into wilting. So, on this run, I moved into wilting at about 80 hours - a few leaves were a greeny color with a yellow tinge, some were brown already, and most were green as though they hadn't changed at all. There was very little yellow, and if I hadn't remembered my last run where I was told to move on, I would have waited longer for yellowing to occur. There was hardly any yellowing at all. Then, at 96 hours - about 16 hours into wilting (ok, I peeked) my RH was down to about 83% and my leaf was supple, but pretty dry. And still green. I stayed in wilting for 24 hours, and the RH dropped to 56%, the temp holding at 118F and I peeked again. My bad!! But the leaf was REALLY dry. And green or brown. I didn't see any yellow at all. I figured this was a failure so I closed the vent and bumped the temp up to 135F just to get the run over with. When I came back in the morning, the RH had soared back up to 84%. I HAD to look!! (Come on, I bet that you would have looked, too). And a good portion of the leaves (those that had been green and unchanged before) were now....yellow....???? Yellow!!! So I continued on with the schedule, and I swear I didn't peek again until it was finished. I understand that once the process is mostly yellow, then the idea is stepping up the temp and dropping the RH to fix the color. But something weird seems to have occurred with this run for it to have ended as it did. At that 56%/118F the lamina was really dry withered and real green - the midrib was not withered and still green and supple. The leaf turned yellow while sitting at 135F for 12 hours. I know I'm being a confused PIA, but is it possible that the leaf was 'forced' to turn yellow under these conditions??

 

[Knucklehead]

You were probably advised to move into wilting on the first run because you reported the majority of the leaf was mostly yellow, not because you had reached 96 hours. You can pretty much ignore any time schedule you have ever read concerning days or hours until you can start harvesting ripe leaf. All that published info goes out the window with green immature leaf. You are just going to have to let the leaf tell you when it is ready. You can tell when the leaf is yellow by the color .

I don't think there was any voodoo going on with this run. I think the leaf turned yellow because it had twelve more hours to do so, not because you raised the temperature early. This is just my guess. I haven't flue cured yet but I've done some reading about it. My theories may prove to be bullshit when put into practice so take this with the proverbial grain of salt.

EDIT: If these other Jaspers can do it, how hard can it be? ROFL

 

[deluxestogie]

You are just going to have to let the leaf tell you when it is ready.

And, if you ask the leaf, it will also tell you not to peek after it is mostly yellow.

"Here she comes again. Peeking! Quick, everybody look green when she opens the lid."

Bob

 

[Brown Thumb]

She needs a Peek hole. Anyone have one laying around.
I have one and just use a 4 in. Expandable rubber plug.

 

[Bex]

Yes, I do need a peek hole....try telling me not to be curious about what's going on in this closed container. But I guess the idea is right - without properly mature leaf, all bets and schedules are out the window...or out the peek hole. I was hoping, however, that I had inadvertently landed on some magic bullet....

Anyway, undaunted, we continue on. I decided to harvest yesterday afternoon at about 4PM - by this time most of the surface water is off the leaf, and I don't have to hassle with drying the leaf myself (ok, I've never actually done this...too work intensive). I was also vigilant about what leaf I collected (or allowed my fat behind to break) - I only collected leaf where the tip of the leaf is beginning to show yellow. It's still nothing like the photos of commercial tobacco (or even the photos on this forum). My threshold was about 1mm of yellow. But I can't be choosy - the leaf isn't showing much more than that. I collected 80 leaves - so a small run - 2 leaves per pin. I was also wonderfully entertaining.....I started at about 5PM. The temp in the container was the same as the outside temp - 51F. The RH was 52%. I set all up, and went inside for a while. I came back a couple of hours later, just to check. WTF. The thermostat still showed 51F - the RH was still at 52%. I checked the plugs, fuses, etc. My whole set up must be broken, but in looking inside the chamber (ok, I really HAD to do this), everything was warm. I was confused. Only then did I realize that I never put the probes into the freezer when I started everything - they were still hanging on the shelf outside. Geesh, what an idiot.
Anyway, I notice that, at least thus far, the harvesting of drier leaf has made a difference. I'm not flopping around with 99% RH, but have been sitting comfortably for almost the past 24 hours at 95%. So far so good.

I promise to peek only during yellowing. When I am ready to head into wilting, I will bind my hands and feet and force myself to be disciplined. Sadly, discipline has been a lifetime problem for me. I wonder if I can start now.....

By the way, just as a bit of an experiment, I put one burley leaf into the flue curing mix, as well....just to see what it would do.....

 

[deluxestogie]

I think you'll find the burley an interesting test of the limitations of flue-curing.

Burley is such a tempting variety to flue-cure, since it yellows so easily. Unfortunately, its other metabolic changes needed to be smokable are not well synchronized to the loss of green. (White stem burleys all have a genetic defect in chlorophyll production/breakdown, so they color easily, but still need more hanging time to be nice.) When I've flue-cured burley, it was non smokable, and never quite completed its required aging later on.

In general, flue-cure types and only some Orientals will flue-cure well. The latter is a trial and error process. I would guess that most leaf varieties that turn out decent when sun-cured will do well when flue-cured--but not all.

Good luck with the run.

Bob

 

[Brown Thumb]

Good Luck,
No Peeking Now

 

[Bex]

I'm about 44 hours into my current run....and have not peeked once. I have found that having my chamber outside is a bit problematic, particularly at night when the weather is cold and dry. While the temps are maintained properly - the digital thermostat just keeps the crockpot on longer if needed, in the cold weather - the RH can be a bit strange. With my vent open (and it's really a small one) at night, the RH can drop to 78% or so. Closing the vent bumps it back up to 99%. I have opted for the vent to be closed at night, and find that as soon as I open it in the morning, the RH drops to about 95% and stays there steady for the rest of the day. Are you curious as to what's going on inside the chamber? Or whether the leaf is beginning to turn yellow? Too bad....I haven't looked so I can't tell you. When I come up to 72 hours, though, I will take a fast peek, just to see what's going on.

I'm glad that I only wasted one burley leaf with my 'experiment'. Burley is actually the majority of what I smoke in my blend, so I would like my Burley crop to come out well.

Thanks for the wishes of good luck with this run. I wish myself the same. I am thoroughly jealous, reading all the other posts from Virginia, Alabama and even the south of England, where the conditions are far more generous for this entire process. My dad always told me I was horribly stubborn. As I continue on with my attempt at this, I guess he was right....

 

[deluxestogie]

What I would suggest for the burley is that you plan on kilning it in the chamber, after it's air-cured. This can wait until your flue-curing is done for the season. For color-cured burley, a month at 125 degrees F, and humid, works wonders. [Peeking during kilning is encouraged!]

Bob