Cure, then kiln? and other NOOB questions

[mrthing2000]

Sorry for the newbie questions, but I'm seeing some things that make me curious.

1) Do I cure the leaves, then kiln them, or do they go directly into the kiln--or does it matter?

2) Does the cure method matter before kilning them?

Right now I am sun curing some and air curing others. I'd like to build a kiln if I can.

3) How do I know when the leaf is fully cured?

Some people are saying it can take mere days, others saying it may take weeks. Some people say to cure them BEFORE drying them. And others are referring to drying as if it is also curing it. I am lost what drying means in this context. I'm not seeing green in the leaves anymore, probably because I sun cured it. But not sure when to say it is done. They are pretty brittle.

4) When do I pick the leaves?

This sounds like a dumb question, but I've topped the plants already. The bigger leaves that turned a bit yellow I opted to sun cure (before I topped it). Now the topping is complete. I suppose I should start priming them in a couple of weeks--but how do I know WHEN?

5) If I can't kiln them, what should I do once they are fully cured?

I understand kilning them seems to make them better. But I'll have to build one first.

6) What is the 'ideal' color for a leaf?

I seem to understand that the color seems to equate to some character of the leaf--sugar content, maybe? So do I want them all yellow/orange/brown? A mix of all of these?

Sorry for the newbie questions.

 

[Knucklehead]

What varieties are you growing?

Cure the leaves first, whether air curing or sun curing. Kilning is done after leaf is fully cured and the stems are fully dry. Most leaf will go from green to yellow to brown. Some leaf seems to go from green straight to brown. After the leaf is brown you can allow it to dry. The leaf is fully cured and ready for kilning or storage when the main stem is snap, crackle, pop dry. If you store the leaf before the stem is dry the stem will mold and under certain conditions the moisture can transfer to the leaf causing rot. Make sure the stem is completely dry. If your leaf dries green (humidity too low), it will stay green and will be good for nothing but compost. Keep humidity at a several day average of ~70%. If humidity stays around 80% for a few straight days your curing leaf can mold or rot. If your humidity drop to around 50% for a few days in a row, your leaf can dry green. 50% during the day and 80% at night is okay as long as the average stays in the 60-70% range.

Kilning is a method to speed age your cured leaf. Raw, freshly cured tobacco will have a grassy, harsh taste. You can let it naturally age for a year for cigarette varieties or up to three years and longer for cigar leaf. Kilning for a month accomplishes the same thing.

Ideal color of leaf depends on class, variety and use. Which varieties and will you use them for cigarettes, cigars, chew, etc?

When to pick the leaves depends on the class, variety and use. Cigarette leaf is picked when ripe, showing a lot more texture to the leaf with 50% or more of the leaf turning yellow. Cigar leaf is primed when it is mature, when the leaf begins to turn a paler shade of green or the tips beginning to show a hint of yellow. Orientals - this chart shows different cured colors corresponding to different colors at harvest: http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/1799-FAQ-about-Turkish-tobaccos?p=77382&viewfull=1#post77382

http://fairtradetobacco.com/forums/58-FAQ-for-Beginning-Growers
http://fairtradetobacco.com/forums/47-Harvesting
http://fairtradetobacco.com/forums/48-Curing-arrangements
http://fairtradetobacco.com/forums/26-Curing-tobacco
http://fairtradetobacco.com/forums/34-Finishing-Tobacco
http://fairtradetobacco.com/forums/35-Fermenting

 

[Jitterbugdude]

You cure first, then kiln.
Curing and drying are basically the same thing. You hang your leaf somewhere and let it slowly dry out. This usually takes about 4 to 8 weeks depending on the temps and humidity. Curing is complete when the stem is dry. The leaf will probably be done in about 4 weeks or so but the stem takes another few weeks to completely dry.

You do not need a kiln. All a kiln does is speed up the aging process. If you do not have one, just let your leaf age by placing in a box or bag. Sample it every few months. At some point it will taste good and make a good smoke.

As for color. All leaf that is air dried will cure brown ( unless you cured it too fast it'll cure green). The only way to get leaf to remain yellow is to flue cure or sun cure. This only works for leaf with high sugar content such as Flue cured and Turkish (medium sugar content).

 

[deluxestogie]

Great NOOB resource: Index to Key Forum Threads.

Bob

 

[mrthing2000]

Thanks for all. Currently I am growing burley and what was told to me was Virginia Gold--but a lot of them died early on, so I am not sure which plants are which. Ideally I'd like to have a little pipe mix and a bit of chew.

I'm thinking of building a curing chamber, sort of a greenhouse looking thing with heavy plastic, a small fog machine for humidity hooked to a PID humidity controller, some sort of mini heater thing on a PID thermostat controller, and a small fan for ventilation.

The temps and humidity here are all over the place lately. 20% one day, 90% the next, and in the 40%s other days. I figure its easier to automate it to get it right. Temps have been fluxing between 60-95 in the daytime, and 75 to mid-40s at night. Its been crazy here in Washington this year.

 

[FmGrowit]

How did your plants die early? Tobacco plants are really hard to kill once they get established. Did you grow in containers and let the soil dry out?

As far as curing goes...there are two basic types of curing. First is the "color cure" where you kill the leaf slowly so it consumes all of the chlorophyll within the leaf. I really don't know if the leaf is actually "consuming" the chlorophyll, but it's an easy way to understand it. After you achieve a proper color cure, then you dry the leaf.

It would take someone about a month to concisely answer all your questions in detail. Luckily, all your questions have answers in the Index to Key Forum Threads

I might suggest getting the grow down correctly before advancing to building a kiln. Curing and kilning (time invested) immature leaf might lead to disappointment.

 

[mrthing2000]

Thanks. I do read through the forums but find some conflicting info here and there.

I started the first batch in a humidity dome--and they molded. Second batch I started did better, but I moved them into containers and put them outside WAY too early--maybe 4 weeks. Burned up. Third batch did much better. Fourth batch is in containers now and seem happy--except that I bottom-watered them in containers outside, forgot about them overnight when they were smaller, and mold got on top of the soil (and some slugs). I misted the soil with diluted vinegar that was still way too strong, and burned up about half the plants bad. But the rest bounced back and are big now.

A couple of the outside plants look awesome. A few are disappointing. Two of them have a few leaves that have apparently lost their green color--sort of a faded bleached yellow look on the leaves near the bottom. I won't pretend to know how to fertilize things, but a good foliar spray once a week didn't even make these ones happy. The others liked it though.

Just hoping I can cure these things right or it will be just a science experiment--which is fun in and of itself, but I'd like to at least have a smoke or two. Everyone said growing was the easy part--and everyone was right!

 

[Chicken]

Sounds like you didn't " harden " your plants by introducing to the outside slowly....

A bacca plant can't go from being started..to thrown directly in the sun.

They will surely burn up.

 

[deluxestogie]

Photos?

Bob

 

[mrthing2000]

Sorry, took a bit to get the photos...

What I'm pointing out here is that some of the leaves look 'bleached' and some other plants look pale compared to others.

I do try to foliar feed them as well as liquid fertilizer if they look like they need it. I mixed in some fertilizer into the soil but with the lack of rain it has been a challenge to keep the ground from drying out by midday.

Then to find out, I should be adding a wetting agent/surfectant to the foliar spray, otherwise it doesn't break the surface tension well enough to absorb fully. Now ya tell me! I've got some dish soap, maybe 1/4tsp a gallon will fix that. Hoping to get these all happy and green again!

Jeez,such a rookie mistake.

 

[Smokin Harley]

go easy on the dish soap surfactant. one drop in the mix usually takes care of ridding surface tension . I wouldnt foliar feed them , thats just me though. I would be afraid the tiniest amount of soap would linger on the leaf and the tobacco would taste soapy . Try a pinch of epsom salts (helps the plant with uptake of nutrients)with your 1/2 strength miracle grow and bottom water only . Make sure your water hasnt gone through any kind of softener system .

 

[deluxestogie]

What varieties are shown in the photos? Also, what size containers are they planted in? It's hard to get a sense of scale.

On first glance, the paler plant looks to me like a normal white-stem burley. My brain can't process all the fertilizer/ foliar spray/ surfactant info. With adequately prepared soil, you should need none of that. Also, a surfactant (like dish detergent), is capable of damaging leaf, especially if applied in direct sunlight.

Once I transplant my tobacco to a garden bed, it gets no further fertilization, and only gets watered if there is a prolonged dry period. The regular supplementation schedules followed by some skilled FTT growers leave me puzzled.

Bob

 

[Knucklehead]

The two fastest ways to kill a tobacco plant: Roundup and Overtending.

 

[mrthing2000]

I wish I knew what varieties I had. I got what was sold to me as 'burley' seeds, and 'Virginia Gold'. The labels blew away, and I'm not sure what burley type it was since it didn't say.

One of the pots is 4-5gal, the other is probably 2-3. After this attempt, I learned the 5 was better (duh!). Its grown faster than anything I put in the ground or in a pot.

The first frost is a few weeks away and that has me nervous. I'll pull them all before then, but the curing part seems exceptionally hard. I envisioned making a curing chamber that controls the humidity and temp to keep it in the ideal ranges. I also thought about stalk curing.

Hanging under the eaves won't work here once the frost comes, I have a shed that I can use, and I could heat that I suppose. But wondering if it will pick up the musty chemically smell from that. I have an insulated garage too, the temps never falling below 50. But I'll have to make a self-contained chamber for it to keep the heat and humidity right. Jeez, those hillbillies actually have an advantage over me with just a shed.

Assuming I don't screw up the curing, I'll def build a kiln at some point this Fall.

If I can get the wifey to be amenable, I'd like to buy a metal shipping container, one of the really small ones, and setup it for curing--putting in heaters and humidifiers from the outside, piping it in, etc. I'll wait a year or two to suggest that. She's not a fan of my hobby.

"Its just to make insecticide." "I swear I'm not chewing again." "It's for research."

LOL

 

[deluxestogie]

If your quantity of leaf is relatively small, you can hang it indoors, and create a vapor tent with some plastic wrap, to keep up the humidity until it yellows:

The wrap is left open at the bottom.

Bob

Note: The yellowing plant is your burley.

 

[mrthing2000]

This is a great idea, great especially if I can't get my homebrew plan going beforehand. It will be challenge to keep the heat up, I guess it wouldn't be much above 72 (room temp) unless the leaves generate their own mini heat when curing.

I'll have to figure out how to keep it from rotting or molding, but this is a great solution!

 

[mrthing2000]

I tried air drying some of the mudlugs just for experimentation. Looked good for awhile, then the humidity really spiked for a few days, and I'm pretty sure they molded. Black dotted stuff, all over. Wasn't sure, but I tossed them. Looked bad to me.

I made a 'cure tent' out of plastic, a fan, and a hot plate with an aluminum heat shield up on bricks. Seems to maintain temps around 70-80 even when its 40's at night. If outside humidity drops or temps spike I turn it off.

But I'm not sure what mold looks like, vs what it means to 'cure green'. On some of the leaves with little holes in them I see the leaf drying, with a tiny twinge of green around those holes. OK. But not sure what I'm seeing on these. Here are two pics:



You'll notice one of the leaves has a couple of white spots--that's where I got carried away with vinegar trying to blast some white fuzzy mold that grew on the seedings (BAD IDEA). They actually still grew out and I thought to screw up these leaves trying different drying methods rather than beta testing the nice ones.

This stuff is not easy. I'll definitely try the wrap and indoor cure next. I'd really like to build a humidity/temp controlled cure chamber but jeez--not sure how to get it to withstand high temps without using sheet metal which is a darned fortune.

Are these drying green?

If they are, will kilning them 'fix it' later?

 

[deluxestogie]

View attachment 17033
I'd really like to build a humidity/temp controlled cure chamber but jeez--not sure how to get it to withstand high temps without using sheet metal which is a darned fortune.

In this photo, the speckled gray/black looks like mold. Also, I see a smutty area along the stem of the lower leaf. This is probably also mold.

For a curing chamber that will meet your needs, read this thread from the beginning: http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads...oskeletal-Wood-Tobacco-Kiln-Flue-cure-chamber

I have yet to use it for flue-curing.

Knucklehead's kiln is the same concept: http://fairtradetobacco.com/threads/5688-Knuckleheads-Wooden-Box-Kiln-Build

The difference is that mine has the XPS foam boards outside of a wooden frame (endoskeletal), and Knucklehead has the XPS foam boards inside the wooden frame (exoskeletal).

Bob

 

[mrthing2000]

In this photo, the speckled gray/black looks like mold. Also, I see a smutty area along the stem of the lower leaf. This is probably also mold.

Thanks for the plans. Very doable.

Why am i getting mold (in general)? Too much humidity? Too low temps? I like the idea of controlling it better. Takes out the guesswork

I'm hoping the mold isn't contagious to the rest of them in there. I'll take out the bad ones and hope that contains it.


Thanks for the plans. I got a miter radial saw for my birthday so the timing is great.

 

[mountbaldy]

Spray them with hydrogen peroxide and you'll be fine. I struggled with mold during the curing process until I did that. Also once things dry to the point the stem snaps when you bend it then mold seems to be less likely.

You probably are too humid. I had to set my humidistat down to 55-60 percent. But you may have to play with that and see what works for you.

Good luck!!

Cheers,

Joe