Do I need to apply for a permit to grow my tobacco in Ontario, Canada

[93rdCanadian]

After doing some searching and attempting to understand the documents, I have discovered that there is a chance my tobacco growing season could be stopped even before it started, and I might get fined for buying raw leaf tobacco from the USA. The following documents are what I'm read and I just wanted to see if you guys here could help clarify it for me.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/bulletins/tt/1_2011.html Ontario Ministry of Finance says I need a permit I think...
http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/E-14.1/page-7.html#h-15 Excise act 2001 from Government of Canada says I can grow 15kg per person over 18 in my house that I am growing for.

Any idea of what to make of this? Am I really going to have to get a permit to grow tobacco for myself?

Edit: http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/tax/tt/rates.html Ontario's tax rates for tobacco don't include raw leaf or uncut/unprocessed leaf

Edit 2: http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/tax/tt/registered.html I think this is what I was looking for all along, I don't qualify for any of these which I think means I'm in the clear as long as I don't import more than 10kg a year.

 

[Knucklehead]

No. The first document deals with selling untaxed manufactured cigarettes and processed tobacco, not whole leaf. If you so much as remove the stem from whole leaf it is considered processed. Ok for home use but not for selling without a license.

The second link has this section that would apply to home grown for personal use:

Exception — manufacturing for personal use(3) An individual who is not a tobacco licensee may manufacture manufactured tobacco or cigars

• (a) from packaged raw leaf tobacco or manufactured tobacco on which the duty has been paid, if the tobacco or cigars are for their personal use; or
• (b) from raw leaf tobacco grown on land on which the individual resides, if
  • (i) the tobacco or cigars are for their personal use or that of the members of their family who reside with the individual and who are 18 years of age or older, and
  • (ii) the quantity of tobacco or cigars manufactured in any year does not exceed 15 kg for the individual and each member of the individual’s family who resides with the individual and who is 18 years of age or older.
    
    Section b would apply. You will need to limit your grow to 15 kg of tobacco per person over 18. What is unclear is whether this is pre or post processing. That could make a huge difference in the allowed grow size. It states "manufacture manufactured tobacco or cigars", this tends to make me think this is post processed, but you would need to have this clarified.

 

[DonH]

No, I think you don't need a permit. The second link clearly states that the "personal use" growing on one's own property is an exception to the overall need for a permit. And you can buy whole leaf from the US, like you say, as long as you don't buy more than 10kg a year.

 

[93rdCanadian]

Ok good to hear that I am hoepfully going to be in the clear. What scared me was in the first link it says the following near the end of the page.

Raw Leaf, Partially and Fully Processed Tobacco Oversight – Effective October 1, 2012

Transition of oversight to Ministry of Finance

Following a transition period, the Ontario Flue-Cured Tobacco Growers’ Marketing Board’s oversight and regulation of flue cured tobacco will be assumed by the Ministry of Finance (ministry).
Burley, black, partially and fully processed tobacco to be regulated

The amendments expand provincial oversight of raw leaf tobacco to include:

• burley, black and all other types of tobacco; and,
• fully and partially processed tobacco.

Registration certificates required once transition occurs

All persons who produce (grow), process, sell, buy, import, export or interjurisdictionally transport any type of raw leaf tobacco must register with the ministry and obtain the appropriate registration certificate.
This means that, effective October 1, 2012, and subject to any transition provisions:

• if you grow tobacco, you will have to register with the ministry;
• if you process, sell, buy, import, export or transport interjurisdictionally raw leaf, partially or fully processed tobacco, you will need to register with the ministry; and/or,
• if you transport raw leaf, partially or fully processed tobacco, you must either register with the ministry or ensure that the person you are transporting the tobacco for is registered with the ministry.

 

[Lakota]

Hi That " All persons who produce and If you grow tobacco" sets the alarm bell off. I tried to find a more diminutive answer with out any luck. The damn laws are made for lawyers and not normal people. Tobacco laws might be following the drinking and driving laws ( I am not against any drinking and driving laws) where every province just makes their own laws and to hell with the Gov of Canada laws.

 

[Knucklehead]

Yes now that looks like you may need to register. I misread "raw leaf, partially and fully processed tobacco" to be a description of the raw leaf, rather than inclusive of the raw leaf. Having read it a second time I think they meant it as an inclusive term.

 

[FmGrowit]

keep in mind...Liberal and Conservative politicians both have seen taxes as the remedy for fixing revenue problems...not just the liberals.

 

[93rdCanadian]

http://www.ontariocanada.com/registry/view.do?postingId=9822

This web page highlights the ammendments to the Tobacco Tax Act, and states the following.

"Exemptions from prohibitions on carrying out regulated activities for certain persons or in certain circumstances.
- For example, an exemption for persons who do not grow more than a certain amount of raw leaf tobacco."

However when I view and search the tobacco tax act I cannot find any exceptions mentioned. I think I am going to have to make some phone calls to find a real answer, if not I will have to find a lawyer to get the real facts.

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/notices/tt/9206.html
I just read this nice little page which tells me that my 2lb raw leaf sampler will cost me $107.45 in taxes alone *facepalm* due to the fact that "Leaf tobacco is "tobacco" under the Tobacco Tax Act and is taxed at the same tobacco tax rate as cut tobacco." I am so screwed -.-

 

[Knucklehead]

Something else confusing in post#4 is the mention of flue cured tobaccos as if the regulation only applied to flue cured.

 

[93rdCanadian]

Regarding this statement I'm really confused.

"Leaf tobacco is "tobacco" under the Tobacco Tax Act and is taxed at the same tobacco tax rate as cut tobacco."

Yet in the actual Tobacco Tax Act this is what it defines for tobacco products.

"“raw leaf tobacco” means unmanufactured tobacco or the leaves and stems of the tobacco plant, but does not include seedlings; (“tabac en feuilles”)"
"“tobacco product” means tobacco in any form in which it is used or consumed, and includes snuff; (“produit du tabac”)"
"“tobacco” means raw leaf tobacco and tobacco products; (“tabac”)"

Therefore raw leaf tobacco is not a tobacco product by the definitions found in the act itself. There are sections for tax on tobacco products in the Tobacco Tax Act but not sections for tax on tobacco or raw leaf tobacco.

 

[leverhead]

That way they can get you no matter what you do.

 

[93rdCanadian]

http://www.fin.gov.on.ca/en/tax/tt/

The above link states "Tobacco tax applies to all tobacco products sold in Ontario. Tobacco products include cigarettes, cigars and other tobacco (e.g., loose, bidis, snuff, chewing, leaf, blunt wraps, water pipe and snus)." The key word there was sold, I am not selling my tobacco therefore the tobacco tax act is not applicable to me. I think that means I can grow my own without registering because it's not for sale. As for bringing raw leaf tobacco into Ontario is out of the question due to the insane $0.125/gram tax.

 

[Boboro]

Whole leaf is not a tobacco product its a commodity like rye seed or cottonbolls. The MS. gov. thalks a lot of crap about tax but if you dont open up a store or ask a lot of ??? they ant gona mess with yea. I dont think Ontario will mess withyou. I was thir on a boat. It was cold but A beautiful place. We eat so many Dungeness crabs that I still got my fill of them.

 

[Matty]

It's a tough one. Something I never found are the laws and such about tax and duty on "postal importation" of whole leaf into Canada. Kinda like it don't really exist lol. There's a pdf file in a thread somewhere on here, it's got some good info in it.

 

[wazzappenning]

i worried and read many pages of government confusing text when i started here as well. they make it confusing on purpose to scare you away. any tobacco product translates to any manufactured tobacco product (ie anything made FROM raw tobacco leaf), that includes raw tobacco leaf with the midrib(stem) removed.

my last shipment of leaf was caught by the border, and they charged me $1.57, or $1.59 a kg., but they also added gst, canada health inspection (idk). that was through ups (dont use them), but still way less than the $ per gram that each province seems like it will charge.

if you order from ppl on here, the shipment probably wont even be inspected. if it is, you should be looking at minor charges. if it does happen to be a stupid charge, either they screwed up and charged you ontario tax per gram, or ontario has its own way on it. you could try a small order, and if crazy taxes are due, return to sender, or call customs and tell them they didnt charge it out right.

its worth the risk in my opinion, compared to buying 50 grams of purposely poison tobacco for $30.

as for growing, i dont know the ontario laws, but the worse that i think could happen is they confiscate it. and again they use tricky language in the laws to scare you away.

you have to be very precise in what you think you are reading, and sometimes use other legal documents as dictionaries for certain terms. the laws are written to confuse, so that the average joe cant get it right. basically written like this question i had on a quebec truck driving license exam

while you are driving, you may drink alcohol,

a) as much as you want
b) as long as you dont go over .08
c) not at all
d) none of the above

my translation may not be so great but the key point that took me quite a while to figure out on this trick question was WHILE YOU ARE, in other words you are behind the wheel on the highway.

sorry if that was a litle off topic, but thats how you have to read tobacco laws in this country.

this thread might help you with the info i found a while back.
http://fairtradetobacco.com/showthread.php?647-important-for-canadians-importing-tobacco

 

[Matty]

Thanks for linking the thread Wazz, that's the one I was thinking of. There's a nice chart on page 6. Awhile back I recieved a ~6lb order of cigar leaf. The package was sent priority and got inspected at the border. I was charged taxes relating to the "other" column in the chart. Duties and taxes together cost me several hundred dollars making it cost as much as if I bought it at a store. I looked into contesting the charges. There is a form that needs to be filled out, one of the things you have to do is prove why you think the charges are wrong and that's where I got stuck. The only info on taxes available are for sales within the country, importing if you physically cross the border in person and for commercial business. I hate to say but I gave up trying to understand. Small packages seem to come accross without any trouble.

 

[Knucklehead]

I think to be safe and put your mind at ease a phone call to the proper authorities is in order. The text I've been reading from your links is contradictory. Some of it is from the original Tobacco Tax Act and some of it is revisions to the Tax Act that would trump the original law. However the language is so convoluted and confusing it's hard to make heads or tails of. It's also difficult to jump from onr document to another unless you start a log and take notes with dates because the later dates tend to be updates or revisions of the earlier dates and that is why one document sounds contradictory to another document. I think a phone call could clear it all up, but first read what you can and write down all your questions before you call. If you can get the person you talk to, to send you a fax or copies of documents all the better. If not, ask if he minds you recording the conversation and be prepared to do so. If it's not written down or documented, it didn't happen.

 

[93rdCanadian]

Thanks for linking the thread Wazz, that's the one I was thinking of. There's a nice chart on page 6. Awhile back I recieved a ~6lb order of cigar leaf. The package was sent priority and got inspected at the border. I was charged taxes relating to the "other" column in the chart. Duties and taxes together cost me several hundred dollars making it cost as much as if I bought it at a store. I looked into contesting the charges. There is a form that needs to be filled out, one of the things you have to do is prove why you think the charges are wrong and that's where I got stuck. The only info on taxes available are for sales within the country, importing if you physically cross the border in person and for commercial business. I hate to say but I gave up trying to understand. Small packages seem to come accross without any trouble.

Well we will see when my 2lb sampler package comes through. Do you think they inspect the package when its priority mail or due to its weight? I read somewhere can't remember now that said packages over 4-5lbs will get inspected more likely. I don't think I am going to mail order much leaf anymore, maybe the occasional pound or two. I am definitely going to grow my own.

I think to be safe and put your mind at ease a phone call to the proper authorities is in order. The text I've been reading from your links is contradictory. Some of it is from the original Tobacco Tax Act and some of it is revisions to the Tax Act that would trump the original law. However the language is so convoluted and confusing it's hard to make heads or tails of. It's also difficult to jump from onr document to another unless you start a log and take notes with dates because the later dates tend to be updates or revisions of the earlier dates and that is why one document sounds contradictory to another document. I think a phone call could clear it all up, but first read what you can and write down all your questions before you call. If you can get the person you talk to, to send you a fax or copies of documents all the better. If not, ask if he minds you recording the conversation and be prepared to do so. If it's not written down or documented, it didn't happen.

I have talked with the Ministry of Finance and they told me to make any tax interpretation it must be done through snail mail, the bright side is it will be in writing. I will let you guys know when I get a response in the mail.

 

[BDaniel]

I know this thread hasn't been touched for a bit, but I thought I would add a little piece of info on the section numbers of the Tobacco Tax Act of Ontario for personal growing. The parts we rely on is section 25 (3)(a) and 25(3)(b), which state: An individual who is not a tobacco licensee may manufacture manufactured tobacco or cigars
o (a) from packaged raw leaf tobacco or manufactured tobacco on which the duty has been paid, if the tobacco or cigars are for their personal use; or
o (b) from raw leaf tobacco grown on land on which the individual resides, if
§ (i) the tobacco or cigars are for their personal use or that of the members of their family who reside with the individual and who are 18 years of age or older, and
§ (ii) the quantity of tobacco or cigars manufactured in any year does not exceed 15 kg for the individual and each member of the individual’s family who resides with the individual and who is 18 years of age or older.
Now having said that, I know from a previous post about the change in whole leaf laws on Jan 01, 2014, to be fully enacted by Jan 01, 2015, it talks about engaging in raw leaf tobacco activities. This should have no affect on personal growing and consumption as along as you stick to the, "no more," than 15kg rule. The beauty to this rule is it's 15kg for every person living in the household over the age of 18 years. That could be a lot of product or not....

 

[FmGrowit]

Now having said that, I know from a previous post about the change in whole leaf laws on Jan 01, 2014, to be fully enacted by Jan 01, 2015, it talks about engaging in raw leaf tobacco activities. This should have no affect on personal growing and consumption as along as you stick to the, "no more," than 15kg rule. The beauty to this rule is it's 15kg for every person living in the household over the age of 18 years. That could be a lot of product or not....

15kg would be enough leaf to produce about 1 pack of cigarettes a day for a year.