koceff
Well-Known Member
Fermenting in vacuum sealed bags or just storing it like that? Oxygen is needed for the tobacco to do it's work right?
Fermenting cigar leaf without kiln
- Thread starter koceff
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ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
Good question about oxygen. In a pilone the fermentation is faster in the middle where it is warmer and more moist, but there's less air. There is air, but there appears to be a hierarchy favouring moisture. Putting dry tobacco in a pure oxygen atmosphere doesn't do anything. Also, curing and aging research I've read in the past seems to support that they involve various biological process that are dependent on the complex chemical and enzymatic environ of the leaf itself. Aside from respiration, which leaf is not doing anymore, as respiration builds carbohydrates, most other oxygen involved processes within plants involve enzymes breaking the water molecule to utilize oxygen, ie. hydrolysis.
I acknowledge that anaerobic fermentation yields different results, but I theorize that pilon fermentation is mostly hydrolysis to begin with and not primarily respiration or oxidation.
In a factory, I assume it's a combination of oxygen dissolved in water and the use of the water molecule, itself.
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ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
This link opens a pdf. Try typing hydrolysis or fermentation into the text search (assuming you don't want to read the whole thing).
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ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
Page 220:
Consideration of the observations of Chibnall referred to above, and of our own data for the increase in amide and ammonia nitrogen, suggests that a considerable part of the nitrogen of the protein which changes from the insoluble to the soluble condition during the early stage of curing, ultimately becomes converted to asparagine, or other amides, and to ammonia. There is an initial large increase in amide nitrogen (Table 6, from 13.0 to 30.3 gm.) but subsequently the increase is very small (Figure 17). Nevertheless continuous hydrolysis of the protein occurred. To account for the failure of the amide formation to keep step with this hydrolysis, one must assume prompt deamination of the liberated amino acids and also that amide synthesis either ceased or reached a position of equilibrium at which hydrolysis of the newly formed amide took place as rapidly as it was synthesized. That enzymes capable of hydrolyzing amides were probably present is evident from the marked decrease in amide nitrogen when the cured leaves were subjected to the fermentation process and this observation is therefore in favor of the view that an equilibrium condition was attained.
Consideration of the observations of Chibnall referred to above, and of our own data for the increase in amide and ammonia nitrogen, suggests that a considerable part of the nitrogen of the protein which changes from the insoluble to the soluble condition during the early stage of curing, ultimately becomes converted to asparagine, or other amides, and to ammonia. There is an initial large increase in amide nitrogen (Table 6, from 13.0 to 30.3 gm.) but subsequently the increase is very small (Figure 17). Nevertheless continuous hydrolysis of the protein occurred. To account for the failure of the amide formation to keep step with this hydrolysis, one must assume prompt deamination of the liberated amino acids and also that amide synthesis either ceased or reached a position of equilibrium at which hydrolysis of the newly formed amide took place as rapidly as it was synthesized. That enzymes capable of hydrolyzing amides were probably present is evident from the marked decrease in amide nitrogen when the cured leaves were subjected to the fermentation process and this observation is therefore in favor of the view that an equilibrium condition was attained.
ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
Curious about the Heber process mentioned in the above document, I looked up the Heber process and read the two pages in this document about it. Now I'm wondering what the secret sauce is made from.
Here's something (from your TB8 reference, page 8 [38T]) I've never seen in print: the quantitative impact of chlorine containing fertilizer on cured leaf burn duration. [Of course, this is from about a century ago.]
Bob
Bob
The B324 link Conclusions and Summary start on page 238 (two pages)
Bob
Bob
Fermenting on smoking tobacco is simply pressure on the leaf when the juices meld together. Tobacco in a bale ferments. It doesn't have to be a lot of pressure just stacking it together in a pile with a book on top will allow the leaf to ferment.
clearly incorrect
https://www.cigarslover.com/en/the-fermentation-of-tobacco-leaves/ This is for cigars not I know fermentation happens just leaving leaves in a bail. Right now with temperatures in the 32 Degree Celsius range the heat and the cooling in the morning ferments the tobacco. It's not a controlled fermentation. Fermentation is a natural process when leaves are pressed together. Natural fermentation happens in bales of tobacco when they are pressed together. Big Bonners tobacco in the bags taste different each and every time I get into them. So it is with the bags of Don's when left in the bag piled and they dry out. Then remoistened and if you keep doing that to a leaf it gets better and better.
Snowblithe
Moderator
Thank you for your input, but it is quite clear even from the source you posted that fermentation is not "simply pressure" that causes fermentation. Microbes do the bulk of the work. You can't see the little tykes so I get why you might miss it.
It could seem that way since there are so many ways of treating tobacco, processing it, storing it and preparing it for use. Fermentation itself is a confusing process too which maybe got mixed up with the practice of pressing and/or piling somewhere along the line. It seems clear to me though from the well referenced, tested and repeatable practices documented here on this site that pressure is definitely not the only factor acting on fermentation. I still have much to learn here.
Simply it's allowing the tobacco to dry and rehydrate while the leaf is piled. Enzymes start to break down my term juices. That is aging. Sweating tobacco just leaving it in a bale anything to do with aging is fermentation. Dons tobacco in the bags when they get all stuck together. Of you pile leaves and they begin to meld is fermentation. So if you are in warm environment right now you can pile your leaves let them dry our and remoisten them that in essence should work. Your not controlling the temperature. Thus every bag of tobacco I leave unopened from Dons tobacco tastes different and for the better I might add. Same with Big's those leaves piled on top of each other provides a different flavour. The temperature changes in a Calgary winter summer Changes as with the humidity levels. It all contributes to the process.
ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
SEMANTICS! We're all talking about different things.
@burge, fermentation by pressure (ie. squishing it is better than not squishing it) that you're talking about might happen but it's off topic because we're not talking about simple aging of cigarette and pipe tobacco in this thread. We're talking like what happens with cigar tobacco in a factory when bulks self-generate substantial amounts of heat, and go through major changes.
@Snowblithe , for the most part, cigar fermentation is actually enzymatic like @burge said. I used to believe it was bacterial until I started to question the methods and non sequiturs of the old research which seemingly determined that. However, you're totally right in regards to perique, and toscano.
@burge, fermentation by pressure (ie. squishing it is better than not squishing it) that you're talking about might happen but it's off topic because we're not talking about simple aging of cigarette and pipe tobacco in this thread. We're talking like what happens with cigar tobacco in a factory when bulks self-generate substantial amounts of heat, and go through major changes.
@Snowblithe , for the most part, cigar fermentation is actually enzymatic like @burge said. I used to believe it was bacterial until I started to question the methods and non sequiturs of the old research which seemingly determined that. However, you're totally right in regards to perique, and toscano.
Right. Cigars are more controlled. I found a cuban cigar post on how they do it naturally in Bales. https://www.cuencacigars.com/blog/all-about-cigar-tobacco-fermentation/ https://www.famous-smoke.com/cigaradvisor/tobacco-farming-part-5-the-art-of-natural-fermentation
This is simply incorrect. Most cigar tobacco fermentation methods (pilon, kiln, time) strive to reach about 128°F (~50°C). Temperatures below 122°F allow the vegetative growth of mold. Johnson's study is specifically regarding adding yeast for fermentation.
Bob
