SqueezyJohn, Workhorse, copenhagen

[Copenhagen Forever]

Ahhh Man! You guys were soooo close. In the post "Recipe for Ettan snus" pages 2 thru 5, you were right on it. Back and forth- BAM BAM BAM, one after the other, crack'n the code. Copenhagen.
You guy's almost had it and then it just fizzed out. I was on the edge of my chair with anticipation.


Post# 52 Workhorse
"I had that burnt rubber taste in my first batch also, but I thought it was from the ring on the mason jar. The second batch was very close to cope. The only thing missing is the ammonium carbonate. I ran out on the last batch and need to reorder."

Post# 53 Squeezyjohn
"No - I've had the burnt rubber thing before and it's only with fire-cured tobacco that's been processed at a fairly high temperature - it's sad to see something that flavourful and aromatic go to waste ... I may try a cope recipe at a later date using a lower temperature for longer."

That was 3 years ago. Did you guy's come to any conclusion?

 

[squeezyjohn]

Sorry no ... not from my end at least. A copenhagen flavour is not a priority to me from home-made stuff ... but I was intrigued as to how it might be possible to make. I have a couple of different kind of fire cured tobaccos and latakia too. However I always make snus which is a process that heats the moist tobacco recipe for a long time before adding akali ... and these processes always render the fire cured with a fairly unpalatable taste (I think it's the alkali that does it most).

It is possible to identify aromas that are similar to things like cedarwood and geranium essential oils in Copenhagen. But I don't imagine that they are actually added to the commercial recipe. The reason you can smell it is that during fermentation of anything a whole spectrum of highly aromatic compounds get produced. This is why wine-experts talk about things like green peppers and blackberries being in wine ... they're not actually there ... it's just a way of describing the taste. I don't wish to put heavily fermented tobacco in my mouth on a regular basis due to health concerns and so my journey kind of stopped there.

I have found that I can make a great snus that rivals anything you can get commercially now and my experiments have mainly been in blending of tobaccos and unusual natural flavourings.

 

[deluxestogie]

I'm afraid it's been over 2-1/2 years since Workhorse_01 has posted on the forum.

Bob

 

[Copenhagen Forever]

Well I sure did appreciate the try you guy's put in. It gave me a lot to go on. I've been reading your recipes and see you blazing new trail. That u tube review of your snus was really good and I would bet that all the stuff your making these day is awesome.
Workhorse on the other hand might be locked in the dungeon at the copenhagen factory. He knew to much!

 

[Copenhagen Forever]

I'm still thinking if the creosote taste ans smell. I searched Creosote taste and got on Wiki. It was something you said about the taste being from the fire cured.

"I think that creosote type taste comes from a combination of the fire cured tobacco and the fermented tobacco which can give off some very strong resinous smells the further it ferments."

Wiki says that there are creosotes that aren't that bad health wise. Maybe some of the tobacco is re-fire smoked with a different wood.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creosote

Halfway down the page;
[h=5]Medical[edit][/h]The guaifenesin developed by Eldon Boyd is still commonly used today as an expectorant, sold over the counter, and usually taken by mouth to assist the bringing up of phlegm from the airways in acute respiratory tract infections. Guaifenesin is a component of Mucinex, Robitussin DAC, Cheratussin DAC, Robitussin AC, Cheratussin AC, Benylin, DayQuil Mucous Control, Meltus, and Bidex 400.
Seirogan is a popular Kampo medicine in Japan, used as an anti-diarrheal, and has 133 mg wood creosote from beech, pine, maple or oak wood per adult dose as its primary ingredient. Seirogan was first used as a gastrointestinal medication by the Imperial Japanese Army in Russia during the Russo-Japanese War of 1904 to 1905.[SUP][43][/SUP]
Creomulsion is a cough medicine in the United States, introduced in 1925, that is still sold and contains beechwood creosote. Beechwood creosote is also found under the name kreosotum or kreosote.

 

[Copenhagen Forever]

Beachwood chips
https://www.google.com/search?q=Bee...echwood+smoke+flavor&spd=11454591779083028177

 

[squeezyjohn]

My health concers are to do with substances called TSNAs (tobacco specific nitrosamines) ... they're the things which can really make dip and snus an oral cancer risk. Back in the 80s when these chemicals were traced as the culprits, the Swedish government got involved with what was at the time a state monopoly tobacco company and essentially made the ruling that snus had to pass food-standards for all toxic substances including TSNAs - this led to much safer snus for sale in Sweden. However in the USA, no such ruling or trend occurred so today US oral tobacco can still be sold which is a high cancer risk ... I prefer to try and make my own snus as close to the Swedish standard as is possible at home.

TSNAs are really tricky and you cannot analyse the levels in the tobacco or product without a lab at your disposal. However - the general rule of thumb is that they are caused by microbial activity within the tobacco ... essentially they are caused by fermentation. This means that obtaining leaf that is low in TSNAs is possible by curing in conditions where the leaves are in the driest and coolest conditions (the opposite of flue curing). This makes it tricky to obtain nice aged leaf ... the ageing is promoted by leaf going in and out of case at ambient temperatures ... fermentation is an extreme version of this and while it makes some of the delicious aromatic compounds that are prominent in traditional dip like Copenhagen, it also promotes higher TSNA levels.

I don't object to fire cured tobacco along the same lines, but the creosote taste I was referring to is a mixture of both smoke and fermentation. (Creosote is what people used to paint their fences with to stop them rotting here until it was banned a few years ago)