DGBAMA
Well-Known Member
Temperature changes should be gradual. Allow time for the rh to lower between each change. I use increments of 5. 95/95, 100/90, 105/85, 110/80, 115/70, 120/60. This gets me through the wilting stage.
Trials and tribulations of my first attempt
- Thread starter Bex
- Start date
- Status
Bex
Well-Known Member
Hmmm...that means, I guess, that you have to sit with this over the course of a few hours, to do it gradually. My temp is now at 118F - my humidity has been dropping about 1% every 10-15 minutes, with the container vented. I'm now at a 60%, with the container still vented. When I close the vent, the humidity begins to rise again.
Something else I notice - I think I may have mentioned it before - if you are using a crockpot for the heat, and, for example, set your thermostat to 120F, the thermostat will shut off the crockpot at 120F, but the temp will still continue to rise another 2-3 degrees. This is similar to turning off an electric kettle prior to boiling, and still having the water boil after the electricity is turned off. The element, while off, is still hot, and will continue to raise the temp of the water (or crockpot) for a minute or two. As 120F is considered that 'borderline temp', I figure it is wiser to set your thermostat at 117 or 118F, so that when the temps continue to rise, you still don't go over that 120F. I imagine this also works for that dreaded 104F borderline temp, as well.
Something else I notice - I think I may have mentioned it before - if you are using a crockpot for the heat, and, for example, set your thermostat to 120F, the thermostat will shut off the crockpot at 120F, but the temp will still continue to rise another 2-3 degrees. This is similar to turning off an electric kettle prior to boiling, and still having the water boil after the electricity is turned off. The element, while off, is still hot, and will continue to raise the temp of the water (or crockpot) for a minute or two. As 120F is considered that 'borderline temp', I figure it is wiser to set your thermostat at 117 or 118F, so that when the temps continue to rise, you still don't go over that 120F. I imagine this also works for that dreaded 104F borderline temp, as well.
DGBAMA
Well-Known Member
You are correct about the set temp "overrun" which is where you have to know your setup.
Rh rising with the lid closed indicated the leaf moisture content has not dropped to match the desired rh yet.
Rh rising with the lid closed indicated the leaf moisture content has not dropped to match the desired rh yet.
Bex
Well-Known Member
Ah, see this is something that would not have really occurred to me, but is pretty valuable info. Thanks! It's these little 'tricks' (or probably what you guys consider common sense) that would take me a while to get to by myself.
Bex
Well-Known Member
My third practice run has finished. The leaves that were used were smaller leaves from the lower tiers of the plants - my plants are just starting to bud now, so I am continuing to practice, so that when I really want to do this 'seriously', I'm confident in the procedure. The leaves used were yellowing on the plant, and most certainly, it was far easier to yellow them during the yellowing stage, than the unripe leaves I had used in my first two attempts. First, I put my best foot forward with a couple of pics:
My adventure this time was with humidity, and learning, through experience, the reason why temps are hiked slowly over a 12 hour period, rather than just bumped up to the temp of the next level. First, I must say that my digital thermostat is, at this point in time, my very favorite possession. It took all the guesswork out the temperature, and allowed me to bump up by 5F (when, halfway through the process, I realized I needed to do it).
The 95F/95% humidity during yellowing was easy to maintain. My first mistake was, when yellowing was finished, going directly to the wilting temperature, without raising 5F every few hours. This destabilized my humidity for the rest of the process, where I was constantly the venting and closing the vent and venting again, in order to keep the humidity I wanted. Just setting the thermostat from 95F up to 118F caused the humidity to drop, but ever so slowly - 1% perhaps every 2 hours or so. On my next run, during this stage, I will follow the advice of bumping up the temp 5F and getting the humidity to drop 10% before I bump the temp up another 5F. This actually kind of works out mathematically, as well, strangely enough, over the course of 12 hours (assuming you can get the 10% drop in humidity during that 2 hour period before the next temp rise). While I understand the need to 'look to the left and right' and think on your feet, I've devised a bit of a 'schedule' to follow, for my next run. Sorry that it's in celsius (as that is what my stat reads:
Yellowing: 34C/95% - normally about 48 hours, or until most of the leaf is yellow.
Wilting: 48C/50-55% humidity
To go from yellowing to wilting:
Vent to 90%.
Raise temp 2C (36C) and wait for humidity to drop 10% (about 81%), at 81% then:
Raise temp 2C (38C) and wait for humidity to drop to 73%, at 73% then:
Raise temp 2C (40C) and wait for humidity to drop to 66%, at 66% then:
Raise temp 2C (42C) and wait for humidity to drop to 60%, at 60% then:
Raise temp 2C (44C) and wait for humidity to drop to 55%.
Raise temp 2C (46C) and stabilize humidity at 50-55%. (The temp at this phase is supposed to be 48C - but as the stat will go over that, I am setting the stat at 46C. That 48C is one of those 'important' temps, where yellowing will not occur once you go over it.
By following the above, each run, no matter how many leaves, their condition, etc., can be stable without bouncing around all over the place. And each subsequent phase (wilting to leaf drying, and leaf drying to stem drying), can be followed in a similar manner. And, funnily enough, it logically (and mathematically) works out as well.
Leaf drying: 57C/35-38% humidity
From wilting to leaf drying:
Raise temp 2C (50C) and wait for humidity to drop 10% (50%), at 50% then:
Raise temp 2C (52C) and wait for humidity to drop to 45%, then
Raise temp 2C (54C) and wait for humidity to drop to 40%, then
Raise temp 2C (56C) wait for humidity to drop to 36% and stabilize.
Stem drying: 68C/15-18% humidity
From leaf drying to stem drying:
Raise temp 2C and wait for a 3% humidity drop at each stage.
Stem drying to midrib drying: Just raise temp to 73C - humidity remains at 15%
So, a bit of pedantry, but hopefully this will work for me. During this current run, even at 73C (165F) I was only able to get the container down to about 28% humidity, with the container closed and no venting. The leaves, however, were totally brittle when this stage was finished, so I imagine that this was ok.
Another interesting thing - I have misted my leaves and put them in my seed propagator on the window to moisten up a bit. But when I open the propagator to check them, while they are becoming more supple, there still is no 'tobacco' smell from them. It's still kind of 'grassy' smelling. Is this because they are not really 'aged', or is there something else that I need to be doing??
Thanks again for all the advice you guys have given so far - without you, this all would have been impossible!!
My adventure this time was with humidity, and learning, through experience, the reason why temps are hiked slowly over a 12 hour period, rather than just bumped up to the temp of the next level. First, I must say that my digital thermostat is, at this point in time, my very favorite possession. It took all the guesswork out the temperature, and allowed me to bump up by 5F (when, halfway through the process, I realized I needed to do it).
The 95F/95% humidity during yellowing was easy to maintain. My first mistake was, when yellowing was finished, going directly to the wilting temperature, without raising 5F every few hours. This destabilized my humidity for the rest of the process, where I was constantly the venting and closing the vent and venting again, in order to keep the humidity I wanted. Just setting the thermostat from 95F up to 118F caused the humidity to drop, but ever so slowly - 1% perhaps every 2 hours or so. On my next run, during this stage, I will follow the advice of bumping up the temp 5F and getting the humidity to drop 10% before I bump the temp up another 5F. This actually kind of works out mathematically, as well, strangely enough, over the course of 12 hours (assuming you can get the 10% drop in humidity during that 2 hour period before the next temp rise). While I understand the need to 'look to the left and right' and think on your feet, I've devised a bit of a 'schedule' to follow, for my next run. Sorry that it's in celsius (as that is what my stat reads:
Yellowing: 34C/95% - normally about 48 hours, or until most of the leaf is yellow.
Wilting: 48C/50-55% humidity
To go from yellowing to wilting:
Vent to 90%.
Raise temp 2C (36C) and wait for humidity to drop 10% (about 81%), at 81% then:
Raise temp 2C (38C) and wait for humidity to drop to 73%, at 73% then:
Raise temp 2C (40C) and wait for humidity to drop to 66%, at 66% then:
Raise temp 2C (42C) and wait for humidity to drop to 60%, at 60% then:
Raise temp 2C (44C) and wait for humidity to drop to 55%.
Raise temp 2C (46C) and stabilize humidity at 50-55%. (The temp at this phase is supposed to be 48C - but as the stat will go over that, I am setting the stat at 46C. That 48C is one of those 'important' temps, where yellowing will not occur once you go over it.
By following the above, each run, no matter how many leaves, their condition, etc., can be stable without bouncing around all over the place. And each subsequent phase (wilting to leaf drying, and leaf drying to stem drying), can be followed in a similar manner. And, funnily enough, it logically (and mathematically) works out as well.
Leaf drying: 57C/35-38% humidity
From wilting to leaf drying:
Raise temp 2C (50C) and wait for humidity to drop 10% (50%), at 50% then:
Raise temp 2C (52C) and wait for humidity to drop to 45%, then
Raise temp 2C (54C) and wait for humidity to drop to 40%, then
Raise temp 2C (56C) wait for humidity to drop to 36% and stabilize.
Stem drying: 68C/15-18% humidity
From leaf drying to stem drying:
Raise temp 2C and wait for a 3% humidity drop at each stage.
Stem drying to midrib drying: Just raise temp to 73C - humidity remains at 15%
So, a bit of pedantry, but hopefully this will work for me. During this current run, even at 73C (165F) I was only able to get the container down to about 28% humidity, with the container closed and no venting. The leaves, however, were totally brittle when this stage was finished, so I imagine that this was ok.
Another interesting thing - I have misted my leaves and put them in my seed propagator on the window to moisten up a bit. But when I open the propagator to check them, while they are becoming more supple, there still is no 'tobacco' smell from them. It's still kind of 'grassy' smelling. Is this because they are not really 'aged', or is there something else that I need to be doing??
Thanks again for all the advice you guys have given so far - without you, this all would have been impossible!!
Bex
Well-Known Member
Another small issue, as well. I advised before (on my last run) that it was impossible for cigarettes rolled with this tobacco to stay lit - some responses were about chloride, etc. I had rolled some cigs from the run from last week, and just left them on the kitchen counter. I tried to light them today, and the same thing - they would only stay lit for as long as the lighter was lighting them. A nice butane hit, perhaps, but not what I'm looking for...I opened all the cigarettes up and threw the shredded tobacco into the microwave, and cooked/dried them for one minute. This alleviated the problem - a rolled cigarette would stay lit, even just laying in the ashtray. Hopefully, the microwave will not alleviate a chloride issue, so it would appear that my issue is moisture??
By the way, I have noticed, at least in my experience, that even with purchased leaf, microwaving seems to change the taste of it considerably, and usually not for the better. Has this been noticed by anyone else??
By the way, I have noticed, at least in my experience, that even with purchased leaf, microwaving seems to change the taste of it considerably, and usually not for the better. Has this been noticed by anyone else??
DGBAMA
Well-Known Member
Mine often takes several days in medium case for aroma to return after flue curing.
Brown Thumb
Well-Known Member
It looks like you are getting some nice leaf. My leaf has a sweet smell, not strong not grassy but it is there. It could be due to it is brought back into med. case while it is still in the chamber.
leverhead
Well-Known Member
To me, flue-cured needs to be aged some, either naturally or with some help in a kiln. I've read (somewhere) that big tobacco aged there flue-cured in hogsheads 14-18 months before use.
Chloride in the soil wouldn't help burning, it may get there naturally from onshore winds carrying salt spray from the coast. A soil test would be the only way to find out if it's a problem.
Otherwise, it looks like you're ready for some ripe leaf.
Chloride in the soil wouldn't help burning, it may get there naturally from onshore winds carrying salt spray from the coast. A soil test would be the only way to find out if it's a problem.
Otherwise, it looks like you're ready for some ripe leaf.
Bex
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the input, guys. While I am still learning, it's great to have the advice and knowledge from people with a lot more experience. Looking forward to doing this for real, with some proper leaf. In the meantime, I'll keep studying...
Bex
Well-Known Member
Attempt number 4 began yesterday - a glutton for punishment, but I am a lot more confident now. I still don't have ripe leaves, sadly, and am hoping that my polytunnel holds up and extends my growing season considerably. Only about 10% of my plants have budded - these were topped about 2 weeks ago. So, for this run, I used the lugs from those plants, 3 from each topped plant gave me about 33 leaves to play with. I also threw in some of the middle leaves from my two outside plants that have been flowering for the past month, for good luck, segregating them in the container so that I can see the difference in how they respond. The STC1000 (digital thermostat) has made regulating the temp an absolute dream - it pretty much where I set it - setting it for a differential of .5C (about 1F), and understanding about the bit of overrun, etc. This attempt is going to concentrate mainly on humidity and venting. I am going to follow the schedule above, basically from Dgbama's advice, and, when it is time to go into wilting, adjust the temp up 2C, and then wait for the humidity to catch up, before I bump up the temps again. This means, at least for this run, that on the days that I am going from one level to the next I'll pretty much be anchored to the house, to oversee exactly what's going on. Once I get this procedure down better, I should be comfortable enough with it when my 'better' leaves are ready for curing.
My last run ended about 10 days ago - the leaf, while looking fine, didn't taste great and wouldn't stay lit in the cigarette. I put it into a plastic bag, opening it every day, kind of shaking it, and closing it up again. An exercise in patience. I finally tried some last night. The grassy taste is pretty much gone, and the cigarette stays lit as it should. The smoke, however, was way too mild for me, and the leaf still felt very thin and light. I have read that this is pretty much the result from lugs (and some of these leaves were even what you call 'mud lugs'), so I imagine that this is to be expected.
Like an idiot, I have a running diary of what I am doing, the temps, humidities, venting, etc., so that I can refer back to it as I'm going along. Of my 3 finished runs, the first had no hygrometer and an iffy thermostat - I can read my confusion and 'panic' with the first run, jiggling the temps around constantly, as they were difficult to stabilize with an oven thermostat. The second run still had the oven thermostat, and this time, a hygrometer with a non-working probe, so each time I needed to look at the humidity, I had to open the container, and therefore immediately reduce temp, humidity, etc. My last run was done with the digital thermostat - truly a plus in this process - along with a proper hygrometer with a working probe. This made yellowing pretty much of a snap - just keeping the temp where it should be, and keeping the humidity between 95-98%. On that run, however, it appears that my problem was not going from one level to the next gradually, and therefore having difficulty dropping the humidity consistently. This is what I will try this time.
Just as an aside, I have a friend who is trying to do this along with me. For some reason, he insists on removing the midribs prior to doing the run, as he finds them unnecessary (considering the need to remove them when shredding). I am of the opinion that the midribs serve a vital role in this process, allowing the humidity to be high at the beginning, and stable. He is finding that his leaves are pretty much dried out when he is in the middle of the wilting phase - while he is trying to add moisture manually during yellowing, etc., I am of the opinion (perhaps wrongly) that this is still not as efficient or productive as just allowing the midrib to assist in the moisture/humidity part of this process. As a newb, of course, it's pretty ridiculous for me to give any 'advice', so I thought I'd ask here. Any thoughts on this??
My last run ended about 10 days ago - the leaf, while looking fine, didn't taste great and wouldn't stay lit in the cigarette. I put it into a plastic bag, opening it every day, kind of shaking it, and closing it up again. An exercise in patience. I finally tried some last night. The grassy taste is pretty much gone, and the cigarette stays lit as it should. The smoke, however, was way too mild for me, and the leaf still felt very thin and light. I have read that this is pretty much the result from lugs (and some of these leaves were even what you call 'mud lugs'), so I imagine that this is to be expected.
Like an idiot, I have a running diary of what I am doing, the temps, humidities, venting, etc., so that I can refer back to it as I'm going along. Of my 3 finished runs, the first had no hygrometer and an iffy thermostat - I can read my confusion and 'panic' with the first run, jiggling the temps around constantly, as they were difficult to stabilize with an oven thermostat. The second run still had the oven thermostat, and this time, a hygrometer with a non-working probe, so each time I needed to look at the humidity, I had to open the container, and therefore immediately reduce temp, humidity, etc. My last run was done with the digital thermostat - truly a plus in this process - along with a proper hygrometer with a working probe. This made yellowing pretty much of a snap - just keeping the temp where it should be, and keeping the humidity between 95-98%. On that run, however, it appears that my problem was not going from one level to the next gradually, and therefore having difficulty dropping the humidity consistently. This is what I will try this time.
Just as an aside, I have a friend who is trying to do this along with me. For some reason, he insists on removing the midribs prior to doing the run, as he finds them unnecessary (considering the need to remove them when shredding). I am of the opinion that the midribs serve a vital role in this process, allowing the humidity to be high at the beginning, and stable. He is finding that his leaves are pretty much dried out when he is in the middle of the wilting phase - while he is trying to add moisture manually during yellowing, etc., I am of the opinion (perhaps wrongly) that this is still not as efficient or productive as just allowing the midrib to assist in the moisture/humidity part of this process. As a newb, of course, it's pretty ridiculous for me to give any 'advice', so I thought I'd ask here. Any thoughts on this??
Bex
Well-Known Member
Dear Diary:
Pah. This is an exercise in how to make this procedure as horribly difficult as possible. Having 'cured' sand lugs on my last run, which, although pretty crummy, had already started to yellow on the plant, I have now decided to 'practice' again on the (regular?) lugs - those really large leaves at the bottom of the plant. Of course, they had shown no signs of ripening when I removed them and started my current run. Why make things easy? I am now about 48 hours into the run, and with a quick look in the container, while they are all a nice, light green, there is not one of them that has shown any signs of yellowing at all. I have personally now determined that it is far easier to yellow leaves that have already started to yellow on the plant. I suppose that my goal now is to keep these leaves alive long enough so that this yellowing process can (hopefully) occur in the chamber. My temps are steady at 34-35C (94-96F); my humidity is steady at 97%/98%, and remaining so with one small shim stuck in the front of the freezer door. I have not had to add any water to the crockpot since my first 'boost' while the container was heating up - the crockpot is now dry, and the freezer/leaves are maintaining themselves nicely. So, I am now hoping that by 72 hours, some yellowing has occurred. Has anyone (stupid enough to do this on unripe leaves) had to extend yellowing beyond the 72 hour mark? If you can keep the temp and humidity stable indefinitely, can you continue to yellow even if this 'phase' heads toward 84 hours or more??
Pah. This is an exercise in how to make this procedure as horribly difficult as possible. Having 'cured' sand lugs on my last run, which, although pretty crummy, had already started to yellow on the plant, I have now decided to 'practice' again on the (regular?) lugs - those really large leaves at the bottom of the plant. Of course, they had shown no signs of ripening when I removed them and started my current run. Why make things easy? I am now about 48 hours into the run, and with a quick look in the container, while they are all a nice, light green, there is not one of them that has shown any signs of yellowing at all. I have personally now determined that it is far easier to yellow leaves that have already started to yellow on the plant. I suppose that my goal now is to keep these leaves alive long enough so that this yellowing process can (hopefully) occur in the chamber. My temps are steady at 34-35C (94-96F); my humidity is steady at 97%/98%, and remaining so with one small shim stuck in the front of the freezer door. I have not had to add any water to the crockpot since my first 'boost' while the container was heating up - the crockpot is now dry, and the freezer/leaves are maintaining themselves nicely. So, I am now hoping that by 72 hours, some yellowing has occurred. Has anyone (stupid enough to do this on unripe leaves) had to extend yellowing beyond the 72 hour mark? If you can keep the temp and humidity stable indefinitely, can you continue to yellow even if this 'phase' heads toward 84 hours or more??
leverhead
Well-Known Member
Now that you've started, you might as well see how long it takes to yellow or dry green. If you're venting, at some point you might need to add water to the crockpot.
DonH
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't worry about how long it takes to yellow. It will take as long as it needs to. Could be up to four days (IRIC from when I did the trash can flue cure last year). The most important thing is that the leaves in a single run yellow about the same time, so it's good to put leaves in that are at roughly the same level of ripeness and thickness. As long as the temp and humidity is correct, they will yellow.
Flue curing is tricky, though, even in the best of situations. This year I am just air curing everything. I lost too much last year flue curing. The majority came out fine, but some cured green, and others kind of burned and got too dark. And the stuff that came out fine didn't taste any better than the air cured. Plus I travel for my job and you really need to be there to babysit the process. Last year I had to get on the phone with my wife and have her relay the temps and humidity and what they looked like and then change the settings. But people have done it successfully here.
Bex
Well-Known Member
I am hoping to be successful with this - there is really no alternative in my climate for anything else, if I wish to try to do this myself. I must say that my attempts thus far haven't tasted great - I'm hoping to improve on this. In the past runs I haven't been gradual with the temp change - which I read is important - and possibly because of this, had problems with too much humidity in the chamber at each level. And, of course, my leaves aren't mature, either. Thus far (after 48 hours) the leaves are a fairly consistent pale green - I hope that by tomorrow they show some more improvement. I will certainly keep my eye on the humidity, and keep it above 95% while this is going on. Fortunately, it's easy enough to maintain the high humidity and temps in the freezer....Hopefully that 4 day yellowing phase produced some smokable tobacco, as this might be in my future....
DonH
Well-Known Member
Bex
Well-Known Member
Basically, yes. The first year I grew tobacco, I tried hanging it/air drying it. It's impossible to do this anywhere outside - I live on the coast, and the wind can be fairly severe. I have two sheds that have ventilation holes in the walls in order to dry out solid fuel or hay that used to be stored in them. This is where I hung my tobacco leaves - they were moldy within two days or so. So I've got my fingers crossed that flue curing will work. Frankly, I don't see why it shouldn't...???
My suggestions:
Bob
- allow leaves to begin to yellow on the plant (stop picking them so soon!)
- allow the leaves in the kiln to yellow for as long as it takes. I peek after 3 days, then every 12 hours after that. My average seems to be ~3-1/2 days for what I pick.
- keep water in the Crockpot until it's time to wilt
- allow the finished leaf to rest for at least a few weeks in low case before deciding how it came out
Bob
Bex
Well-Known Member
Ah, your first suggestion is extremely sensible - I only hope that my leaves do yellow on the plant (and if I run out of time, my practice now may have held me in good stead...???) But yes, this I do understand, having done a run with yellowing leaf - it is far easier than this struggle I put my self through.
Thanks, though, for your advice about just yellowing for as long as it takes. I kind of figured that this is what I was going to do, but it is good to have confirmation that this is what I should do, as well. I did take a peek into the container - I spied one leaf that is starting to go a bit brown - sponging? scalding? I don't know - the RH is about 97%, the temp was at 97F (because of the overrun), I knocked it down to 94F. (Interestingly, at 97F I was having a bit of difficulty keeping the RH at 97% - it was beginning to drop to 94% or so - but with the temps steady at 94F, it appears that the container holds a steady 97% humidity with a small shim inserted, so that the container is a bit vented. I figure that as long as the hygrometer indicates 97%, this should be ok, correct? In my previous runs, I had a habit of closing the vent at bedtime - perhaps this is not correct - but I didn't want to wake up to a chamber that is suddenly at 50% RH and everything dried up. However, thus far, on this run, I have not done that.
Of course, I am 'conditioned' by the original can cozy cure, where the perpetrator rolled a cig and lit up right away, and cried, 'Success!' But yes, I have noticed that the taste does improve over a few weeks - certainly my first run has tamed down considerably, although there is still some kind of 'twang' that sits on my tongue that I would like to get rid of. Aside from the fact that, sadly, it is still too mild for a standalone smoke for me....hence my interest in red Virginia.
Thanks for your reply....
Thanks, though, for your advice about just yellowing for as long as it takes. I kind of figured that this is what I was going to do, but it is good to have confirmation that this is what I should do, as well. I did take a peek into the container - I spied one leaf that is starting to go a bit brown - sponging? scalding? I don't know - the RH is about 97%, the temp was at 97F (because of the overrun), I knocked it down to 94F. (Interestingly, at 97F I was having a bit of difficulty keeping the RH at 97% - it was beginning to drop to 94% or so - but with the temps steady at 94F, it appears that the container holds a steady 97% humidity with a small shim inserted, so that the container is a bit vented. I figure that as long as the hygrometer indicates 97%, this should be ok, correct? In my previous runs, I had a habit of closing the vent at bedtime - perhaps this is not correct - but I didn't want to wake up to a chamber that is suddenly at 50% RH and everything dried up. However, thus far, on this run, I have not done that.
Of course, I am 'conditioned' by the original can cozy cure, where the perpetrator rolled a cig and lit up right away, and cried, 'Success!' But yes, I have noticed that the taste does improve over a few weeks - certainly my first run has tamed down considerably, although there is still some kind of 'twang' that sits on my tongue that I would like to get rid of. Aside from the fact that, sadly, it is still too mild for a standalone smoke for me....hence my interest in red Virginia.
Thanks for your reply....
I believe that what you can determine by smoking the leaf straight out of the flue-cure is whether or not it tastes like raw (color-cured) tobacco. At only 5 or 6 days from being green leaf, eliminating that raw, grassy taste is a big step forward. Age will take care of the rest.
Bob
Bob
- Status
